Computer Repair/Talk

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version 78 (2009-10-30 11:10:20 by RealComputers)
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version 80 (2009-10-30 11:22:26 by JoePomidor)
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''2009-10-30 11:13:05'' [[nbsp]] One of the things that I dont think a lot of you guys take into account as wiki users is that business in davis can relly be affected by small changes and links added to pages. For example, a customer wrote that they took their comupter away from help computers and brough it to real computers instead, someone made real computers into a link (wasnt me) and help computers then goes out of business. I think you guys need to slow down and think about the things you write on business pages because its very real for the businesses. --["Users/RealComputers"]
 * I don't think you understand the idea of the wiki, which is to be a community tool. It is designed to help people in the community find information on subjects that they might not otherwise be able to locate. Part of this is making it easy for them to locate a business or a type of business. The situation you describe only happens if a significant number of people try Help Computers, decide they don't like it, post negative reviews, and those reviews cause other people to look elsewhere. It is not that the wiki is causing Help Computers to go out of business, it is their own inability to retain customers or attract new ones. The wiki only serves as a platform for the information (good or bad) to be distributed to people who wish to know it. I have seen business owners use the wiki as a tool for good, as well, in which they look at the negative reviews, respond to them (civilly!) and work towards addressing those issues. --["Users/JoePomidor"]

This is a page for discussing the contents of the Computer Repair page

RealComputers keeps on adding himself under the free computer repair and support. When I objected that what he was offering constituted neither, he changed the nature of what he was offering for free so that software repairs short of OS reinstalls were free. It is clear, however, that such "free" services are merely for promoting his own business. Should he be allowed to add himself under the free computer and support heading or am I just overreacting? It seems like spam to me. If he wants to offer such services on this page, they should be under his business listing. —WilliamLewis

The listing is valid. I offer a great deal of free services. Its not a promotion. I will not try to convice people to spend money unless their computer requires new parts or a new OS.

Revert to version 129. RealComputers
Revert to version 128 (PLEASE STOP EDITING THIS PAGE.). WilliamLewis
Revert to version 126 (VALID, despite your opinion lewis). RealComputers
removing the conflict of interest. WilliamLewis
Revert to version 125. WilliamLewis
Revert to version 124. RealComputers
Revert to version 123 (Just another wiki editor.). WilliamLewis
Revert to version 122 (william please let someone else decide. You are biased. ). RealComputers
Revert to version 121 (Moved offerings to where they belong.). WilliamLewis
Revert to version 120. RealComputers
(No comment) WilliamLewis
Revert to version 118 (your argument is pased on strange personal feeling that do not apply.). RealComputers
Revert to version 117 (PLEASE STOP EDITING THIS PAGE.). WilliamLewis
Revert to version 116 (weather or not its from my heart, it doesnt change the fact that its real.). RealComputers
Revert to version 114 (Not being offered out of the kindness of your heart.). WilliamLewis
Its a real free service that I perform. Its not a promotion. RealComputers
Revert to version 113. RealComputers
Revert to version 112 (promotion for commercial service.). WilliamLewis
Revert to version 110 (quite valid free services). RealComputers
not the name of the service... if it is, stupid name. WilliamLewis
Promotional for commercial service. WilliamLewis
spelling RealComputers
(No comment) RealComputers
more formatting consistency WesHardaker
format fix WesHardaker
maybe a better way to add the text for Brian. WesHardaker
Content didn't make sense there as a sub-bullet of linux? also duplicates above WesHardaker
(No comment) RealComputers
Changed nature of free service. RealComputers
Revert to version 99 (VALID). RealComputers

I this this shows that you are personally affected by this issue and therefore need to let someone else decide. There are many other who can take care of this issue.

Call it what you will. I am just trying to preserve my listing.

Comments:

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2009-07-28 08:33:56   I am curious to know what about the listing "Brian Tangney (925-915-1522) will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed." does not qualify as a free service. —RealComputers —RealComputers


2009-07-28 08:37:16   Further more nothing has been listed twice. The business Real Computers and me, Brian Tangney are two seperate things. I intend only to help people get their computers working again, it is not ment to be a business promotion. If it were, it would say real computer instead of my name. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 08:40:12   Proposed: The page gets set to [WWW]this version. It is clear from Brian's edit history that his listing under the free computer repair and support heading is intended to be an upsell for his commercial computer service. Brian's offerings are clearly not independent of his commercial service, so they should be listed under the listing for his computer service and not along with the genuine free services that lack any kind of pecuniary interest. This is done in the version I propose using. Additionally, Brian claims that my opposition to him listing himself is out of competitiveness.... that somehow he could cut into the flow of cookies and beer (which was tongue in cheek, anyway) I get for repairing people's stuff. In the version I propose, I have removed my listing from this page entirely to alleviate such concerns. It's not like anyone has taken me up on the offer in the year or so my name has been up there, anyway. —WilliamLewis


2009-07-28 08:44:18   You didnt remove anything .. jabberwokky did .. and then he locked it .. Your asumptions are just that .. asumptions. You have no evidence for what you say. Yes my commercial service and my free service are seperate. It is as stated, all repairs that do not require that I take a computer apart or reinstall the OS are 100% free and will not be disturbed by the commercial service that real computers provides. —RealComputers

Right, I have changed the listing several times to better agree with what editors like yourself think it should say. I have done so in the interest of compromise. Even if it were an "upsell", which it is not, that would not make it invalid. I did not make any link, I did not list any connection to real computers, I made the listing in such a way that I felt it could not be taken as an upsell because I realize that might be unwaranted.


2009-07-28 08:45:05   I am as entitled to list my free service as you are. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 08:47:57   Maybe you can suggest to me a listing of mine, that includes my name and a way to reach me that would be more agreeable to you. —RealComputers

That version is not acceptable because people with no money wont even bother to read the commercial listings.


2009-07-28 09:01:38   Before wes edited the page :

Free Computer Repair & Support
Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv.
LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members
For a free computer diagnostic, in person or over the phone, contact Brian Tangney. (925-915-1522) Brian will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), aswell as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed.
Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.)
WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer.
Try out the computer questions page.

After wes edited the page

Free Computer Repair & Support
Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv.
LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members
Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.)
WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer.
Brian Tangney. (925-915-1522) say he will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed. But he may try and sell you other services beyond his free offerings.
Try out the computer questions page.

Spelling error : he say he will perform ...

Changes I made to wes's edit

Free Computer Repair & Support
Davis Mac Users Group (DMUG) is a good place to get Mac advice; see the wiki page for instructions on subscribing to their listserv.
LUGOD provides free Linux installation, education and assistance; attend one of their regular installfest workshops and talk to one of the hundreds of members
Contact any of these awesome volunteers! (Add your name here.)
WilliamLewis worked as a repair tech and network administrator for three years. He's retired from the business, but he can probably be coaxed into helping you if you're a cool person and/or you offer cookies and beer.
Brian Tangney (925-915-1522) will perform the following computer sercives for free: Diagnostics (over the phone or in person), Troubleshooting (over the phone or in person), as well as any computer repairs that does not require that your or computer be taken apart or that the operating system be reinstalled. Guaranteed.
Try out the computer questions page.

As you can see I left his formatting intact. I dont think its needed to say “he says he will perform...” because that is already implied. Also, I will not try to sell other commercial service unless a computer needs to be taken apart or needs the OS reinstalled. In such a case I would simply offer them a commercial solution, I would not force it down their throat.


2009-07-28 11:00:05   The problem people are having Brian is that what you just said is misleading. You'll help them out unless it needs a real repairs in which case you'll offer to do it as your business. It's not about "forcing it down their throat" so much as the offer. No other listing under "free repair" will ever ask for money or charge. That's the point of that catagory: entirely free. That listing simply isn't equivalent to the others, no matter how you cut it. It's not "part free, or free up to a certain point." In all honestly, I'm pretty sure many of the "Commericial Repair" places also provide free diagnostics. While they might not offer as much free software support as you, that doesn't entitle the listing to go under free. Rather, that's a selling point in your businesses favor. Ultimately, you are your company and it's commercial. It's not really fair to try to split it, but then also have the possibility of an upgrade. It comes across as deceptive (and again, it would be the only place essentially listed twice on the list). It's a bit hard to follow this discussion, because people are leaving comments on multiple pages, but I'm trying to sum up what I am seeing several people have been saying (which disappear in the noise between RealComputers and WilliamLewis revert-war edits). —EdWins


2009-07-28 11:47:01   I have to agree. Businesses send out offers all the time for a free somethingorother in hopes that you will come in and then buy their services. There's nothing wrong with doing so. It generates business and brings in new customers. But offering a service as a loss leader or promotional tool does not make the business a free service. Now, how does this apply to the wiki page in question? The titles of the sections in question are:

"Commercial Repair Services": These are services that charge money to perform computer repairs. Your service charges money to perform actual repairs. Therefore, it is a commercial repair service.

"Free Computer Repair & Support": These are services that will repair and support your computer for free. While you may tell someone what is wrong with their computer for free, you do not repair their systems for free, or at least it seems very unlikely that you do. (In fact, if you are giving people free, working hardware in exchange for non-working hardware, please let me know. :-) ) A diagnosis is not a repair. So you are not repairing computers for free, just telling people that they have something wrong as a way to generate business. Therefore, your business belongs in the commercial section, not the free section, even if it offers a free diagnostic service. —IDoNotExist


2009-07-28 11:49:39   I am in full agreement with WL on this one. The listing shouldn't be in the free section, since the service provided is only conditionally free. Also, by obscuring the fact that RealComputers (the business) and Brian Tangney (the person) are essentially one and the same is rather shady. Brian, you say that you want someone who isn't personally affected to "decide", but out of everyone here you are the one who is most personally involved in this. Also, you say that there are others who can take care of this, but a quick glance at the edit history shows that WesHardaker, Edwins, Jabberwokky, and CovertProfessor have all attempted to remove or tone down the addition to the page, and you reverted their changes. Who, then, are the others who can take care of this issue? Not a single other user has replaced the information after its removal. The consensus has already been reached. Leave the page alone. —JoePomidor


2009-07-28 12:06:17   until a compromise is reached, the free sections page will not be restored. That is my understanding. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 12:15:51   too bad its not up to you. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 12:27:47   honestly, now that privy computer diagnostics is "departed", if that ever really got started, I dont care as much. That rediculous 20 flat rate claim was right above my listing and it took a lot of nitice away from it. I was mostly trying to compensate for that. I still think having a listing in the free section was completely valid, but its not worth having to argue with all you people so consider this issue done. Dont leave anymore comments on my user page. Post them here. I will not even read comments posted on my user page, I will only delete them. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 12:29:58   However, I do think the mention of cookies and beer should be removed from the page. Its just dumb and unprofessional. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 12:45:14   I'm glad you're accepting what seems to be a community consensus. Before anyone else says it, I'll bring up two points: 1. By your own admission, you were trying to up/advertise your own business just because of another listing. Can you not see why so many people were not in favor of your edits? It was indeed self-promoting and deceptive! Most of these people just care about the wiki, and fairness. Me too - I think it takes people a while to learn the ins and outs, especially those who have a special interest in it, and I try to help ease tension. Their only concern is when people purposefully try to "misuse" it. I guarantee that if you more of a regular editor (rather than putting your company first in your edits), you'd likely never have a single issue in regards to this stuff or with other people. Secondly, more minor, the wiki isn't overall a professional forum. Throughout the thousands of articles here, there are lots of jokes and comments and that sort of stuff. It's supposed to be a friendly community resource, and someone saying they'll do stuff for cookies isn't really an issue (because this isn't any sort of official or professional place, it's community driven). In fact, I once "won" some cookies for [WWW]identifying some bird photos. —EdWins


2009-07-28 12:49:12   It was promoting but it was still valid and true and for that reason alone it should have been fine with all of you. I was willing to offer a certain extent of free computer repair in exchange for having a listing there, so that people who are only intersted in free service can still be helped. However Real Computers will not be offering the same kinda of services. I was willing to do a little extra for free on the side in exchange for the listing but now that will not happen, as it is somewhat self defeating for Real Computer to offer free repairs as a commercial business. Good job guys. You have killed a good thing. —RealComputers


2009-07-28 12:53:18   I'm sorry you feel that way. But what if we had called up the other 17 or so commercial places, and 10 of them also offered free diagnostics and software support? (I know offhand at least four of them would match your offerings). And if they were also listed under Free. Then both categories would be pretty much the same, and worse, they'd drown out the legitimate fully free repair groups. Special consideration for any one business or store or group is never going to end up being fair on the wiki. It's simply NOT an advertising or official/professional forum or set of listings. It'll always be more friendly, more relaxed, and community-based. I'm concerned that if you don't see part of the bigger picture, these sorts of edit problems will happen more often. And while it may not be anyones fault, I'm sure you know that overall, it's going to hurt your business' publicity. At the least, I'm sure you'd rather have an editor like WilliamLewis on "your side" when some other company/group/person tries to work the wiki. These people would react the same way if Privy Diagnostics tried to put up a free listing. I really don't think it's personal at all to most of them, and that's why so many people try to have some outreach and recommend you check out other pages and become a general wiki editor. The added scope will certainly help out your business in the long run. —EdWins


2009-07-28 12:58:51   I edited while you were probably typing, but I know for sure that at least four of those places would match whatever you were offering. Anyway, the situational setup I was making was the real point. I've stayed pretty neutral in most of your time here and tried to just help everyone get along, but I really think, again, that it might make more sense if you could take a step back and try to look at it as if you didn't have a small business. Understanding how and why the wiki works will really help you out in the long term. I'm also stepping back from this myself, I just wanted to take a shot at trying to explain a viewpoint in a different way than other people might have. Cheers, —EdWins


2009-07-28 12:56:09   you are misinformed. I had been willing to offer much more than diagnostics for free at this point. If I were neutral, I would imagine that I would appriciate the free services being available. Furthermore, if I were looking for a free service I would not bother to read the commercial section and therefore not discover that Real Computers offers free repairs, which it does not. It was only something I was willing to do on the side to help people out. —RealComputers



2009-07-28 16:58:42   Since I have nothing else to do while I wait for my autoclave to finish....

Is there any reason the page can't simply have one section for "Free [All Inclusive] Repairs" and then another section for "Free Diagnostics/Computer Services" or "Free Computer Support" ? Someone who is looking for a fix-it on the cheap well still see both Free headings and can then select for their specific needs. Brian could list his business under the latter heading with a brief explanation of what he provides. —OliviaY


2009-07-28 19:47:36   It sounds as though free diagnostics is something that a lot of the companies offer. Maybe a better thing would be to figure out who does and who doesn't, and edit their business pages accordingly. —JoePomidor


2009-07-28 19:54:06   Joe's got a good idea, but why not take it one step further and list out all of the commercial places that offer free diagnostics under a heading on the computer repair page too? That is actually useful information, I think, and it would be easier for someone just looking for a diagnostic to find it rather than clicking through every single computer repair place's entry to see if they offer free diagnostics. That way, it would also be clear to anyone reading the computer repair page that the diagnostics are free and that the company you are taking it to is for-profit and will charge for anything else. If I had a computer issue come up, I'd actually find such a list quite useful. —StaceyEllis


2009-07-29 02:12:12   The problem is the misdirection, not the good-intent. When I go walk down the mall and some friendly person is outside a cookie store offering free bites I'm very much aware that the free-bites are there to try and get me to come into their business. I have a very direct notion that I need to be cautious and wary because the source is biased one way or another (hey, maybe it's a competitor leading me away). Knowing the bias ahead of time is importantant, regardless of whether the intent is good or not.

That's a really hard model to follow on the wiki. The way the "Brian" section was written (is frequently and repeatedly written?) is very misleading. There is no way to tell that an upsell is even in the potential future. I'd be pretty annoyed to call him and realize later in the discussion he's doing this as a bait-in type of tactic, regardless of how nice and beneficial he was on the phone or in person or how much he did for free.

I personally do not believe the text belongs in the free section alone. Someone who is in business in a particular field is always biased toward the business (because you need to be to succeed). I edited it to at least make the connection more clear, but make sure you don't read it as a belief it should even be there. If anyone is counting consensus votes, definitely count me on the "shouldn't be there at all" side. Not because I don't think that Brian is a friendly and helpful guy (I really hope he is). But because I think it's shady and misleading to anyone reading the page without complete knowledge on the subject. —WesHardaker


2009-10-30 10:36:40   Whoever decided to go and place links to the computer repair page on all the computer repair shop pages, please stop. Most of the computer reapir shop pages already have links back to the computer repair pages. You are making it so the links are linsted twice. Maybe just add tyhe linkif the page doesnt aready have a link back to the list of repair shops but seriously, stop being link happy and double up all the links. —RealComputers

Links should be evenly distributed, thats really the inportant part here. There should not be some pages with more links that others. It makes it unfair to the business with more links and kaes it easier for potential customers to skip over the information.


2009-10-30 10:56:15   I'm not going to mess with the links anymore but seriously, this needs to be thoughtout in a fair way. —RealComputers


2009-10-30 11:13:05   One of the things that I dont think a lot of you guys take into account as wiki users is that business in davis can relly be affected by small changes and links added to pages. For example, a customer wrote that they took their comupter away from help computers and brough it to real computers instead, someone made real computers into a link (wasnt me) and help computers then goes out of business. I think you guys need to slow down and think about the things you write on business pages because its very real for the businesses. —RealComputers

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