This page is for discussing the contents of Ethnic and Cultural Organizations.
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Okay, I just went and deleted a few of the race pages, but the asian one is pretty good as it brings into more than just a minor statistic, whoever wants these pages, recreate them, add a few references and clubs, perhaps links to other wikipages, we don't need a minor statistic, that is what the Demographics page is for.
2007-03-02 07:44:54 I agree, but I'd even say the Asian entry could be incorporated. Spiritual Organizations carries plenty of different religions and their various groups, a Ethnic Organizations entry could carry links to all the various groups focused on races, subraces and mixed race populations in the same way. —JabberWokky
2007-03-02 09:05:41 Agreed, —DavidPoole
2007-03-02 09:10:46 What about informational "community" pages for Indians and other ethnicities in Davis instead? "Indian Community in Davis," "Asian Community in Davis," or something like that? It could inform people about the diverse groups in Davis (How large is the community? What's their history in Davis? How are they represented in the community? Groups, businesses, places of worship, etc.) and give members of those communities a place on the Daviswiki to provide info to others (new arrivals of the same ethnicity, or those considering a move to Davis, people in the area who may be curious about that ethnicity or culture, etc.) —DukeMcAdow
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The problem is not that there's anything wrong with that, but that those entries are having difficulty because they pigeonhole a single race or group, and then there is no easy way to address cross-groups or sub/super groups. What if a group is dubiously of a character to fit? Indians are Asians, right? Well, I doubt that would fly, although you could technically say so. In the end, the Spiritual Organizations layout has worked quite well for religions, a similarly fuzzy and cross-woven topic with specific groups that overlap, superset and are questioned by other groups as to their legitimacy. In addition, those entries by race quickly grow non-Davis relevant bulk on them. —JabberWokky
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Ah, that unpredictable "human" element! I see your point. I was thinking along the lines of pages by and for self-identified ethnic communities, but I guess that wouldn't decrease the likelihood of things getting snarled over time. —DukeMcAdow
2007-03-02 10:23:28 Yeah, I should have tossed this around a bit more so everybody was on the same page. Sorry guys, there was no intent to "hijack the wiki", I just got excited and started editing. I'm moving some thoughts from EricWu's entry to here to describe where I'm going with all this. If I had realized how big a change this was, I would have presented it before doing this much. Again, apologies for the sudden amount of change. In the end it won't be horribly different from now, but much easier to maintain, I believe. —JabberWokky
From EricWu's entry, where he was asking me if South Asians needed to completely go away, since there should be a point for new people identifying as South Asian to start. Removing that starting point is not the idea:
2007-03-02 10:18:08 I lack the detail to really do a good writeup, but think of it like this: South Asians — verbose essay introducing and welcoming South Asians, heavy on description, no real lists... and a list of links to Demographics (which should be agressively updated), Ethnic and Cultural Organizations, and other locations, which are primarily composed of lists. I.e., the lists are centralized, the essay-article type information is not. That allows the lists to be updated and the text to be less objective and more subjective (I don't know what it's like to be culturally a South Asian, nor does a list of groups give me an idea of what distinguishes them. That info goes into South Asians, the lists and simple group indices go into the Demo and Group list entries). —JabberWokky
2007-03-02 10:19:14 Incidently, the writeup should not be like a Wikipedia writeup (which the Asians entry started to become). It's not about "South Asians"... it's about "South Asians in Davis", which is a very important distinction. —JabberWokky
The reason some of those pages are being deleted is because, once their demo information is moved to demographics (which can be kept up to date), and the groups moved out, there is no Davis relevant content left. That's a real good sign those weren't good entries to begin with. The Asians entry, although it has a good deal of general Asian talk,does have a great start with the list of discrimination in Davis. It's not general discrimination, but Davis specific discrimination like the Japanese Internment vote by city council (I only moved it out because I thought it was so important it should be expanded on). That's about "Asians in Davis", and why I didn't delete the Asians entry. This is ALL intended to do two things: Make it so the lists don't pigeonhole, and can show cross-cultural groups (International House wasn't listed under any ethnic page, and Mixed Race applies to many people) and so that the specific ethnic group entries can focus on being relevant to Davis without becoming a Wikipedia intro, a couple links to groups and a old cut and paste of outdated demographic info
I think it is necessary to have pages such as Native Americans and South Asians because it will give them a venue to contribute to the wiki. These are charged pages and will draw those that were not initially involved in the wiki to come and edit, brining more people to the wiki. The argument is that once the resources and demo information is removed, the pages have little or no content. My question is, would you create a new page for one piece of information? The reason content does not exist is because people had no place to put it.
Also as I noted to JW, that from the point of view of someone that identifies as Native American or South Asian, the grouping of ethnicity and cultures can give the impression that people who identify as those identities are being pushed aside, to be further ignored. Such pages offer a welcome environment for people who identify as those identities. If correctly integrated into the orgs page and the demo page, these will not be too much clutter but provide such benefits if a person that identifies happens along this wiki. —EricWu
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2007-03-02 15:17:06 I feel your argument is circular and only exists to support itself, Eric. —TusharRawat
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My points are that 1) content would not be added because people would not bother to create a new page 2) the existence of such pages would encourage more participation in daviswiki. Maybe you could better explain how my argument is circular —EricWu
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2007-03-02 15:33:23 Also, the elimination of ALL the race/ethnicity pages would solve this problem of feeling alienated. —TusharRawat
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Odd, because I feel alienated by the establishment of the ethnic and culture orgs page and would feel alienated by the removal of all the race/ethnicity pages. I am also certain that there are others that feel that way. The notion of a color-blind society is of a society that doesn't and couldn't exist —EricWu
There is a clear reason for cultural entries to exist, just as "So, you're a parent, here's what Davis has to offer" or "Here's the history of the City Council" entries should exist. What they have been in the past are either lists (which have the problems addressed above) or general knowledge articles (a la Wikipedia) with little to offer to somebody in Davis. That's the big issue, and the one that I believe is why there's been so much activity (other than poor JoAnna who happened to start a new entry a couple hours after this discussion got rolling and saw her entry get steamrollered as an infant). The idea is not to exclude, but to include by having a central resource for demographics and organizations, and then major entry points for various cultures and groups. Why is there a Asian entry point but nothing for Japanese? Japanese are then lumped in. What about Armenians? Where's their entry point? How about Armenian-Japanese? By centralizing the Ethnic and Cultural resources (a la the Spiritual ones), we can include everybody and then provide entry points to that single (or, including Demographics, dual) resource. I can speak for myself when I say I'm not intending to "push aside" anybody, I'm trying to make the wiki more inclusive to people like JoAnna, who are of mixed race, for pan-cultural groups like International House, and for groups that aren't lucky enough to have somebody making and keeping updated a special entry just for them. No, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be ethnic entries, just that there should also be a comprehensive directory for everybody. The difference is a list versus text. Just like the Spiritual Organizations, the Ethnic and Cultural Organizations entry won't have backgrounds or history. The Asian (or Japanese) entry should have a link to the internment camp vote and other aspects of the history of Asians (or Japanese) in Davis. The first Japanese professor, maybe a graph of city demographics, people who have held office or been on the city council. There is tons of Davis related material to include on the individual ethnic entries beyond a paragraph on "What is an Asian", demographics either replicating or missing from the demographics entry and a bulletted list of organizations that don't include pan- mixed- or connected ethnic groups. I don't want less, Eric... I'm pruning and consolidating to grow more and provide a resource for all cultures in town. —JabberWokky
2007-03-02 16:26:19 By the way, while I am passionate about this, feel free to poke holes. I saw a need, found a solution that fixes most of the issues and pursued it. If there's another, better solution or you see problems with my solution, let me know. I tend to speak bluntly and with strength of conviction, but I'm not deaf. There are likely some problems, like dups of some orgs on Spiritual and Cultural Org pages. It is quite possible there's a more elegant solution to the handling pan- mixed- connected and disputed groups in a wholly inclusive way without getting in the way of "history of — in Davis" and "guide to Davis for —" entries. This is just my best attempt to do so. —JabberWokky
