Recent Changes for "Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem" - Davis Wiki

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

JasonAller — 2008-08-16 14:38:03

link fix

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

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- When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

JasonAller — 2007-07-16 00:21:51

Revert to version 14 (Steve, how many times have you deleted this? this page part of balance for GVCC).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-07-15 23:31:34

Page deleted (private emails are not public nor verifiable)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

WilliamLewis — 2007-03-14 19:27:36

Revert to version 11 (It's a subpage. No reason to put this in the main namespace.).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 19:23:27

Page deleted (no comment)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

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- #redirect Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 19:23:14

Renamed to "Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem"

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ #redirect Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

WilliamLewis — 2007-03-14 19:10:28

Revert to version 9 (Stop deleting source material.).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 19:07:27

Page deleted (Has no relevance)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

WilliamLewis — 2007-03-14 19:05:38

Revert to version 7 (Stop deleting source material.).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 19:01:13

Page deleted (It would be chaotic if I recorded all of my emails on the Wiki to spite people )

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

WilliamLewis — 2007-03-14 18:58:14

Revert to version 5 (Relevant material to the topic. Not elsewhere on the internet to link to.).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 18:57:15

Page deleted (You don't put religious conv. on the Wiki )

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

JosephBleckman — 2007-03-14 18:52:05

Revert to version 3 (It did not seem private styled.).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

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- deleted	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

SteveOstrowski — 2007-03-14 18:26:38

Page deleted (Something wrong with posting personal emails )

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

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- = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = - - When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - - '''Here was my email to him:''' - - Dear Doctor Grudem, - - My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. - - When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. - - I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. - - God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton - - '''Here is his response''' - - Dear Cliff, - - It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! - - I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. - - Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! - - Hope this helps.	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

JasonAller — 2007-03-06 23:30:38

Fixing link to point to user page

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- When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["Clifton Burton"]	+ When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-19 17:21:39

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- When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with.	+ When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. ["Clifton Burton"] +
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Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-19 17:11:25

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Allegations/Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem

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	+ = Email Correspondence with Dr. Grudem = + + When I was considering leaving GVCC in January of 2004, I sent an email to a well-known and respected theologian, to get his perspective on a certain practice in the church that I had a problem with. + + '''Here was my email to him:''' + + Dear Doctor Grudem, + + My wife and I are members of a nondenominational reformed church in Davis, CA. The pastor, is a graduate of Westminster Seminary, but has a charismatic background. He moved to Davis and started the church, and for a season our church was part of the "sheperding" movement – he was under Bob Mumford. As you know, that movement fell apart for various reasons but a remnant of its practices remains in place at our church – the concept of a life-time covenant commitment to the local body of believers, or “permanence”. + + When a family or church member feels called to go elsewhere, they must ask to be released from their commitment. This is only granted to those who are moving reasonably far away. It has never, to my knowledge, been granted to those who wish to attend a different church in the same area. + + I have come to the opinion that a person who makes such a commitment is not bound to keep it, because it is unscriptural and exceeds the bounds of ecclesiastical authority. My analogy is Martin Luther, who broke a sacred vow of chastity on the grounds that it was not Biblical. My wife takes a much more conservative view: if you make a vow or covenant before God, you are obligated to keep it. Can you shed light on this issue? Your insight would be very helpful. There is more riding on this than I can explain now. + + God bless. Your brother in Christ – Clifton Burton + + '''Here is his response''' + + Dear Cliff, + + It was unwise to make the vow in the first place, and I don't think it is anything God ever asks us to make or ever wants any church to encourage anyone else to make. Think of how God moved people around to various places almost constantly in the OT and NT!! + + I do not think the vow was pleasing to God in the first place. It is promising that you will not be free to follow his guidance in the future, for your whole life. Therefore every day that you continue in it is further disobedience to God, it seems to me. + + Rash and wrongful vows should be broken at once, with an expectation of God's favor on you when you break it. Both Jephthah's rash vow (Judges 11:31) and the vow of the men not to eat until they had killed Paul (Ac 23:14) fall in this category. Saul's rash vow is similar (1 Sam 14:24.) All of these should have been broken at once. God is not pleased when we promise him something he does not want us to do!! + + Hope this helps. + + ["Clifton Burton"]