Recent Changes for "Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences" - Davis Wiki

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2009-08-11 15:43:08

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- (Recent Update: Now that you have had to "cut off" a dear friend in order to stay in good graces with the church, I expect some clarity may be coming. Please understand this; whatever you learn about the church does not change the wonderful fact that you came there 4 years ago, heard the Word of God, and were transformed by the power of the Spirit. No one can take that away from you, because it is God's gift of salvation to you. - ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ (Recent Update 8/11/2009: Now that you have had to "cut off" a dear friend in order to stay in good graces with the church, I expect some clarity may be coming regarding what I was saying about the church leaders' use of fear and intimidation. Please understand this; whatever you may come to realize about the church can never change the wonderful fact that you came there 4 years ago, heard the Word of God, and were transformed by the power of the Spirit. No one can take that away from you, because it is God's gift of salvation to you, not the gift of men. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2009-08-11 15:38:07

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- *Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ *Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - + + (Recent Update: Now that you have had to "cut off" a dear friend in order to stay in good graces with the church, I expect some clarity may be coming. Please understand this; whatever you learn about the church does not change the wonderful fact that you came there 4 years ago, heard the Word of God, and were transformed by the power of the Spirit. No one can take that away from you, because it is God's gift of salvation to you. + ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2009-08-11 15:29:11

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- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear.
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- = Alleged Aberations =	+ = A Summary of Aberations =

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2009-08-11 15:27:05

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	+ = Alleged Aberations = + For an in-depth discussion of various aberations at GVCC that have been identified by former members, go to ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2009-06-06 21:06:58

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- Also, you may not be aware of the fact that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently denounced by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ Also, you may not be aware of the fact that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Gerrit Buddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently denounced by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.
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- "2007-10-25" For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://www.ubf-net.de/doc/pile.en.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ "2007-10-25" For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Gerrit Buddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://www.ubf-net.de/doc/pile.en.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

gabyserpa — 2009-06-04 01:29:11

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- I'm not sure what a cult is. In my religious studies classes, (RST major) we learn that a cult is simply a community of religious people. I spoke with a cop, and he told me that a cult is a church that tries to put a monopoly on beliefs - that it teaches the absolute truth, that there is no other way, and demands a monopoly over faith. Faith isn't faith when there's a monopoly because there's no need to believe or abide in. To abide in is a choice. To be in is automatic - as if you are born into something. Anyways... Whether good or bad, GVCC and GA are highly cultic. There are many different ways to define a cult. Are the leaders charismatic? What college-aged female wouldn't be attracted to Greg Perry and what college-aged male wouldn't look up to him? What I believe is the real deal is is GVCC spiritually and dangerously spiritually abusive? My answer is yes. As soon as I returned to the Bay Area after spending Fall Quarter immersed at GVCC and in GA, I felt empty and lost - matching the described feelings of others who've ever left a cult. I felt like my parents didn't really have faith. They were both raised with extremely religious parents... don't need to say any more on that. The feelings I remember - were just - a huge loss of perception - including a perception of time. I felt so confused and misplaced. I didn't know what my identity was anymore. Separated from the church that had so much control over me - who was I without it? - I admit, however, that I loved that quarter. I was put into a perfect world - a utopia - and it was calming. But without it - I was evidently nothing. Where was my God who was everywhere, including an hour and 15 minutes away from the church? This is what's scary. When I think of all the experiences I've read about and heard, where people say you're really not supposed to ever leave GV, I can't help but agree - because it becomes you. - I've been told you get closer to members of GA and GVCC than your own family. I've been told it's hard to find "real Christians" outside of the church. I've heard GA's and GVCC's defenses of being a cult, and it's pretty lame. Oh, it's cuz an elder was addicted to Vicodin - that's what started it all. BS. BS... I'm not someone who normally cares to outwardly defend myself. I'm a very pacific person - but I've been incredibly, incredibly hurt. Incredibly. - Next in the story, is my denial. I prayed and prayed - incessantly about what to do. Why would I want to leave a church where I was so happy? I felt tired of change. I felt tired of meeting new people. I'm a very friendly person so I'm always meeting new people. I wanted quality over quantity. This is what the church offered. I didn't want to start over and develop other relationships with Christians. These feelings were drilled so deeply into me. It's because GA is so intense. Many kids talk about the same desires - less is more, yada yada - which are great and true thoughts... but who feels them so much all the time??? So there's definitely a strong attachment people gain right away to the following no matter the length of time spent there. Anyways, I began developing anxiety. I went to the therapist and asked for medication. This is totally unlike me. I began taking a little bit of the medication, but instead, it gave me MORE ANXIETY. I felt like I was numbing myself from being able to feel my feelings and seek God. "Feed your faith and your fears starve to death." Later on, "an advisor" tells me of how her friend in college meds because she was always questioning her faith. People go crazy! It's way too much pressure. Everyone's supposed to read a set-out portion of the Bible every day. Kids are constantly picked on to know any detail of the Bible - which is fine - I never cared - but I've heard of how others felt about the pressure - and someone told me about his bizarre routine just in case he got picked on. Yep, I later found out that many members of GVCC - are on anti-depressants. Crazy, because when I usually think of Christians, I think of very deep people who know how to deal with what life gives them in a mature manner, finding a lesson to learn, and always - reasons to smile. - So to end this story, spring break, the phrase, "without God there is no hope" - (heard all the time in GA) echoes and lingers. I feel immense fear. I feel that no one around me (being outside of the Church) lived their life the RIGHT?? way and it STRESSED ME OUT, saddened, and again SCARED me. I woke up in the middle of the night feeling that the world was so hopeless. On returning to Davis for Spring quarter, I change fellowships IMMEDIATELY, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. - What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? Also, I was told that what mattered wasn't that I was fellowshipping elsewhere, but that this GA-er wanted to change my thinking. BRAINWASHING. God changes the thinking. We plant the seed. - I could not be happier with where God has now placed me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned after his departure. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive things about GA as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. - Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's family story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist. - What else... - Oh I've heard so many one-on-one accounts from people who attended GV and people who've just been around. The things I've heard get ridiculous. But this is my testimony on the system. - So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. At prayer meetings, I'd hear names brought up and personal business that seemed so unheartful to announce to everyone without that person present. I know I've been mentioned a lot and talked badly about. How Christian. I've also been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. - 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said such thinkings have no correlation. The direction was given in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings, it would be better to not let them in. NOT NOT TALK TO THEM. NOT MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE **** - I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But being out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me, now — I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggested me to do - instead I bring it to God. I pray a LOT more. - We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. - Keeping the faith in faith, thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN. I love you God.	+

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

gabyserpa — 2009-06-04 01:13:16

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- So to end this story, spring quarter, I right away change fellowships, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? I could not be happier with where God has put me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned all the time after his leaving. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. - Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist.	+ So to end this story, spring break, the phrase, "without God there is no hope" - (heard all the time in GA) echoes and lingers. I feel immense fear. I feel that no one around me (being outside of the Church) lived their life the RIGHT?? way and it STRESSED ME OUT, saddened, and again SCARED me. I woke up in the middle of the night feeling that the world was so hopeless. On returning to Davis for Spring quarter, I change fellowships IMMEDIATELY, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. + What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? Also, I was told that what mattered wasn't that I was fellowshipping elsewhere, but that this GA-er wanted to change my thinking. BRAINWASHING. God changes the thinking. We plant the seed. + I could not be happier with where God has now placed me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned after his departure. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive things about GA as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. + Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's family story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist.
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- So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. I've been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. - 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said they have no correlation. The direction was in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings. - I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me — I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggest me to do. I pray a LOT more. We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. Should I have faith in faith? No. That faith is too dualistic, isolationist, and cultic. Maybe this one. Maybe this one is really Christian. Thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN.	+ So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. At prayer meetings, I'd hear names brought up and personal business that seemed so unheartful to announce to everyone without that person present. I know I've been mentioned a lot and talked badly about. How Christian. I've also been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. + 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said such thinkings have no correlation. The direction was given in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings, it would be better to not let them in. NOT NOT TALK TO THEM. NOT MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE **** + I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But being out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me, now — I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggested me to do - instead I bring it to God. I pray a LOT more. + We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. + Keeping the faith in faith, thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN. I love you God.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

gabyserpa — 2009-06-04 00:55:32

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- = Protests = - - * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["Users/BrentLaabs"] - * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["Users/KarlMogel" KJM] - * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. - * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the church was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remember that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["Users/ArlenAbraham" arlen] - * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["Users/JosephBleckman"] - * I am in the process of contacting the University Administration about what has been said here. However, since most of the stories are given on anonymous accounts and/or new accounts where we don't know you, people will have to meet in person with University officials. Hopefully this will be on an anonymous basis, so there is no fear of reprisal. All I can do is get the ball rolling, because I have no personal knowledge about Grace Alive other than their yellow posters. Details to come. --["Users/BrentLaabs"] - - * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of weird abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occasions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - -
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	+ + + = Protests = + + * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["Users/BrentLaabs"] + * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["Users/KarlMogel" KJM] + * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. + * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the church was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remember that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["Users/ArlenAbraham" arlen] + * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["Users/JosephBleckman"] + * I am in the process of contacting the University Administration about what has been said here. However, since most of the stories are given on anonymous accounts and/or new accounts where we don't know you, people will have to meet in person with University officials. Hopefully this will be on an anonymous basis, so there is no fear of reprisal. All I can do is get the ball rolling, because I have no personal knowledge about Grace Alive other than their yellow posters. Details to come. --["Users/BrentLaabs"] + + * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of weird abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occasions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

gabyserpa — 2009-06-04 00:52:59

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 32:	Line 32:
- - - I'm not sure what a cult is. In my religious studies classes, (RST major) we learn that a cult is simply a community of religious people. I spoke with a cop, and he told me that a cult is a church that tries to put a monopoly on beliefs - that it teaches the absolute truth, that there is no other way, and demands a monopoly over faith. Faith isn't faith when there's a monopoly because there's no need to believe or abide in. To abide in is a choice. To be in is automatic - as if you are born into something. Anyways... Whether good or bad, GVCC and GA are highly cultic. There are many different ways to define a cult. Are the leaders charismatic? What college-aged female wouldn't be attracted to Greg Perry and what college-aged male wouldn't look up to him? What I believe is the real deal is is GVCC spiritually and dangerously spiritually abusive? My answer is yes. As soon as I returned to the Bay Area after spending Fall Quarter immersed at GVCC and in GA, I felt empty and lost - matching the described feelings of others who've ever left a cult. I felt like my parents didn't really have faith. They were both raised with extremely religious parents... don't need to say any more on that. The feelings I remember - were just - a huge loss of perception - including a perception of time. I felt so confused and misplaced. I didn't know what my identity was anymore. Separated from the church that had so much control over me - who was I without it? - I admit, however, that I loved that quarter. I was put into a perfect world - a utopia - and it was calming. But without it - I was evidently nothing. Where was my God who was everywhere, including an hour and 15 minutes away from the church? This is what's scary. When I think of all the experiences I've read about and heard, where people say you're really not supposed to ever leave GV, I can't help but agree - because it becomes you. - I've been told you get closer to members of GA and GVCC than your own family. I've been told it's hard to find "real Christians" outside of the church. I've heard GA's and GVCC's defenses of being a cult, and it's pretty lame. Oh, it's cuz an elder was addicted to Vicodin - that's what started it all. BS. BS... I'm not someone who normally cares to outwardly defend myself. I'm a very pacific person - but I've been incredibly, incredibly hurt. Incredibly. - Next in the story, is my denial. I prayed and prayed - incessantly about what to do. Why would I want to leave a church where I was so happy? I felt tired of change. I felt tired of meeting new people. I'm a very friendly person so I'm always meeting new people. I wanted quality over quantity. This is what the church offered. I didn't want to start over and develop other relationships with Christians. These feelings were drilled so deeply into me. It's because GA is so intense. Many kids talk about the same desires - less is more, yada yada - which are great and true thoughts... but who feels them so much all the time??? So there's definitely a strong attachment people gain right away to the following no matter the length of time spent there. Anyways, I began developing anxiety. I went to the therapist and asked for medication. This is totally unlike me. I began taking a little bit of the medication, but instead, it gave me MORE ANXIETY. I felt like I was numbing myself from being able to feel my feelings and seek God. "Feed your faith and your fears starve to death." Later on, "an advisor" tells me of how her friend in college meds because she was always questioning her faith. People go crazy! It's way too much pressure. Everyone's supposed to read a set-out portion of the Bible every day. Kids are constantly picked on to know any detail of the Bible - which is fine - I never cared - but I've heard of how others felt about the pressure - and someone told me about his bizarre routine just in case he got picked on. Yep, I later found out that many members of GVCC - are on anti-depressants. Crazy, because when I usually think of Christians, I think of very deep people who know how to deal with what life gives them in a mature manner, finding a lesson to learn, and always - reasons to smile. - So to end this story, spring quarter, I right away change fellowships, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? I could not be happier with where God has put me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned all the time after his leaving. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. - Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist. - What else... - Oh I've heard so many one-on-one accounts from people who attended GV and people who've just been around. The things I've heard get ridiculous. But this is my testimony on the system. - So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. I've been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. - 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said they have no correlation. The direction was in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings. - I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me -- I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggest me to do. I pray a LOT more. We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. Should I have faith in faith? No. That faith is too dualistic, isolationist, and cultic. Maybe this one. Maybe this one is really Christian. Thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN. - - - -
Line 159:	Line 142:
	+ + I'm not sure what a cult is. In my religious studies classes, (RST major) we learn that a cult is simply a community of religious people. I spoke with a cop, and he told me that a cult is a church that tries to put a monopoly on beliefs - that it teaches the absolute truth, that there is no other way, and demands a monopoly over faith. Faith isn't faith when there's a monopoly because there's no need to believe or abide in. To abide in is a choice. To be in is automatic - as if you are born into something. Anyways... Whether good or bad, GVCC and GA are highly cultic. There are many different ways to define a cult. Are the leaders charismatic? What college-aged female wouldn't be attracted to Greg Perry and what college-aged male wouldn't look up to him? What I believe is the real deal is is GVCC spiritually and dangerously spiritually abusive? My answer is yes. As soon as I returned to the Bay Area after spending Fall Quarter immersed at GVCC and in GA, I felt empty and lost - matching the described feelings of others who've ever left a cult. I felt like my parents didn't really have faith. They were both raised with extremely religious parents... don't need to say any more on that. The feelings I remember - were just - a huge loss of perception - including a perception of time. I felt so confused and misplaced. I didn't know what my identity was anymore. Separated from the church that had so much control over me - who was I without it? + I admit, however, that I loved that quarter. I was put into a perfect world - a utopia - and it was calming. But without it - I was evidently nothing. Where was my God who was everywhere, including an hour and 15 minutes away from the church? This is what's scary. When I think of all the experiences I've read about and heard, where people say you're really not supposed to ever leave GV, I can't help but agree - because it becomes you. + I've been told you get closer to members of GA and GVCC than your own family. I've been told it's hard to find "real Christians" outside of the church. I've heard GA's and GVCC's defenses of being a cult, and it's pretty lame. Oh, it's cuz an elder was addicted to Vicodin - that's what started it all. BS. BS... I'm not someone who normally cares to outwardly defend myself. I'm a very pacific person - but I've been incredibly, incredibly hurt. Incredibly. + Next in the story, is my denial. I prayed and prayed - incessantly about what to do. Why would I want to leave a church where I was so happy? I felt tired of change. I felt tired of meeting new people. I'm a very friendly person so I'm always meeting new people. I wanted quality over quantity. This is what the church offered. I didn't want to start over and develop other relationships with Christians. These feelings were drilled so deeply into me. It's because GA is so intense. Many kids talk about the same desires - less is more, yada yada - which are great and true thoughts... but who feels them so much all the time??? So there's definitely a strong attachment people gain right away to the following no matter the length of time spent there. Anyways, I began developing anxiety. I went to the therapist and asked for medication. This is totally unlike me. I began taking a little bit of the medication, but instead, it gave me MORE ANXIETY. I felt like I was numbing myself from being able to feel my feelings and seek God. "Feed your faith and your fears starve to death." Later on, "an advisor" tells me of how her friend in college meds because she was always questioning her faith. People go crazy! It's way too much pressure. Everyone's supposed to read a set-out portion of the Bible every day. Kids are constantly picked on to know any detail of the Bible - which is fine - I never cared - but I've heard of how others felt about the pressure - and someone told me about his bizarre routine just in case he got picked on. Yep, I later found out that many members of GVCC - are on anti-depressants. Crazy, because when I usually think of Christians, I think of very deep people who know how to deal with what life gives them in a mature manner, finding a lesson to learn, and always - reasons to smile. + So to end this story, spring quarter, I right away change fellowships, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? I could not be happier with where God has put me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned all the time after his leaving. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. + Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist. + What else... + Oh I've heard so many one-on-one accounts from people who attended GV and people who've just been around. The things I've heard get ridiculous. But this is my testimony on the system. + So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. I've been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. + 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said they have no correlation. The direction was in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings. + I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me — I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggest me to do. I pray a LOT more. We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. Should I have faith in faith? No. That faith is too dualistic, isolationist, and cultic. Maybe this one. Maybe this one is really Christian. Thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN. + +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

gabyserpa — 2009-06-04 00:50:46

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 32:	Line 32:
	+ + + I'm not sure what a cult is. In my religious studies classes, (RST major) we learn that a cult is simply a community of religious people. I spoke with a cop, and he told me that a cult is a church that tries to put a monopoly on beliefs - that it teaches the absolute truth, that there is no other way, and demands a monopoly over faith. Faith isn't faith when there's a monopoly because there's no need to believe or abide in. To abide in is a choice. To be in is automatic - as if you are born into something. Anyways... Whether good or bad, GVCC and GA are highly cultic. There are many different ways to define a cult. Are the leaders charismatic? What college-aged female wouldn't be attracted to Greg Perry and what college-aged male wouldn't look up to him? What I believe is the real deal is is GVCC spiritually and dangerously spiritually abusive? My answer is yes. As soon as I returned to the Bay Area after spending Fall Quarter immersed at GVCC and in GA, I felt empty and lost - matching the described feelings of others who've ever left a cult. I felt like my parents didn't really have faith. They were both raised with extremely religious parents... don't need to say any more on that. The feelings I remember - were just - a huge loss of perception - including a perception of time. I felt so confused and misplaced. I didn't know what my identity was anymore. Separated from the church that had so much control over me - who was I without it? + I admit, however, that I loved that quarter. I was put into a perfect world - a utopia - and it was calming. But without it - I was evidently nothing. Where was my God who was everywhere, including an hour and 15 minutes away from the church? This is what's scary. When I think of all the experiences I've read about and heard, where people say you're really not supposed to ever leave GV, I can't help but agree - because it becomes you. + I've been told you get closer to members of GA and GVCC than your own family. I've been told it's hard to find "real Christians" outside of the church. I've heard GA's and GVCC's defenses of being a cult, and it's pretty lame. Oh, it's cuz an elder was addicted to Vicodin - that's what started it all. BS. BS... I'm not someone who normally cares to outwardly defend myself. I'm a very pacific person - but I've been incredibly, incredibly hurt. Incredibly. + Next in the story, is my denial. I prayed and prayed - incessantly about what to do. Why would I want to leave a church where I was so happy? I felt tired of change. I felt tired of meeting new people. I'm a very friendly person so I'm always meeting new people. I wanted quality over quantity. This is what the church offered. I didn't want to start over and develop other relationships with Christians. These feelings were drilled so deeply into me. It's because GA is so intense. Many kids talk about the same desires - less is more, yada yada - which are great and true thoughts... but who feels them so much all the time??? So there's definitely a strong attachment people gain right away to the following no matter the length of time spent there. Anyways, I began developing anxiety. I went to the therapist and asked for medication. This is totally unlike me. I began taking a little bit of the medication, but instead, it gave me MORE ANXIETY. I felt like I was numbing myself from being able to feel my feelings and seek God. "Feed your faith and your fears starve to death." Later on, "an advisor" tells me of how her friend in college meds because she was always questioning her faith. People go crazy! It's way too much pressure. Everyone's supposed to read a set-out portion of the Bible every day. Kids are constantly picked on to know any detail of the Bible - which is fine - I never cared - but I've heard of how others felt about the pressure - and someone told me about his bizarre routine just in case he got picked on. Yep, I later found out that many members of GVCC - are on anti-depressants. Crazy, because when I usually think of Christians, I think of very deep people who know how to deal with what life gives them in a mature manner, finding a lesson to learn, and always - reasons to smile. + So to end this story, spring quarter, I right away change fellowships, and so much joy returns to me. I feel like what God taught me is the necessity to really listen to Him. I'm very thankful for my experience because it helped me grow in God. What really affected me and still effects me is someone telling me that my religious views are straight from the pit, that they were going to poison him, and to please not contact him ever again - because I said that God gives us grace and we don't always have to be perfect. Ouch. How does that not sting? I could not be happier with where God has put me. I feel so blessed and am loving every moment, truly savoring it. But the words said to me, and the heads turned of prior friends when I encounter them - it makes me feel like the experience is out of a movie or a TV show. I have another friend who feels constantly shunned all the time after his leaving. What we both agree on is "who would have known that what people say about Grace Valley is ACTUALLY TRUE?" My main concern is the effect that GVCC has on non-Christians. My non-Christian friends, having heard positive as-well, don't know how to feel about Christianity after hearing about GVCC and GA - after having been to service and hung out with the kids, people agree that "they're weird." - something is weird. We're all weird in our own ways, but something is unhealthfully weird about GVCC and GA. + Another point, is the constant responses from kids in GA to me while I was in it that they felt like they couldn't relate to the other kids and didn't feel like they fit in. It's like people are always putting on a pretty face just for the camera. I was also told that no one actually is that close, they just all know each other's story. Funny, because the way they treat each other, you'd think everyone was super close-knit. No, there's just a bizarre desire to seem holy - keyword SEEM - and have awesome relationships that don't really exist. + What else... + Oh I've heard so many one-on-one accounts from people who attended GV and people who've just been around. The things I've heard get ridiculous. But this is my testimony on the system. + So I want to lastly say some more things that were told to me while I was there. I've been told that GA gossips so much. I've been told to stop being friends with my best friend because she's not Christian because by being her friend, I'm showing her it's okay to not be Christian. Interesting logic. If anything, I've seen her grow, and she's actually now been attending events of another Christian organization that I now attend. + 2 John says to not let someone in the home who gives false teachings and pretty much just to shut the door. Perhaps this is how GVCC validates shunning? We talked about it today in my Gospel of John and Johannine Epistles class, and we said they have no correlation. The direction was in the case that if the person is to come into the home and teach someone susceptible like the kids, etc. in a time where a lot of people were giving false teachings. + I guess this is me saying a lot, and I know that there is no "perfect Protestant church" - that's what someone in GA said to me. I know I'm in no way perfect. But out of GA and GVCC, I pray to God to help me -- I don't seek counsel for every little thing like kids suggest me to do. I pray a LOT more. We're all different. Cults apparently work for some people. But it didn't work for me. I hate having to search through what I learned while fellowshipping with them and weed out what is and isn't Biblical. Where I want to fully surrender to God, I have to evaluate whether or not it's safe to. What a feeling. Should I have faith in faith? No. That faith is too dualistic, isolationist, and cultic. Maybe this one. Maybe this one is really Christian. Thank you God. Thank you Jesus. Thank you for rescuing me. Because my soul has been tortured, my mind strained, my heart BROKEN. + + + + +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2009-04-15 12:08:07

fixed link

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 143:	Line 143:
- * First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- For those interested, here is a link to ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"]. ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-QHrGIP3I&feature=related dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- For those interested, here is a link to ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"]. ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-03 10:57:12

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- Hi, Michael. This is Clifton Burton (no this is not a pseudonym). I would like to respond to your note. First let's define our terms. Libel is defamation; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another. How do you know that the negative things written about this church by so many former members are false or unjustified? It is disturbing to you, and I can understand that. But they are describing their experience, not yours. You attended this church as a student for 2 years. My family was in the church for over 25 years. I joined the church in 1975, and was one of the first elders, back when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. Dale Sorbello and his family were also in the church for many, many years. I challenge you to find one thing that I have written on the Davis Wiki that is false. It is true, that when I first made entries to this sight, a few years ago, I used the pseudonym of Bob Smorelights. But soon afterwards, I removed the pseudonym and used my real name, to demonstrate my veracity. If you are interested in the truth, and don't trust the "personal vendettas" of former members, then I suggest you personally contact some of the other pastors in Davis. They have seen first hand the damage which Grace Valley Christian Center has done to people who leave. --["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ Hi, Michael. This is Clifton Burton (no this is not a pseudonym). I would like to respond to your note. First let's define our terms. Libel is defamation; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another. How do you know that the negative things written about this church by so many former members are false or unjustified? It is disturbing to you, and I can understand that. But they are describing their experience, not yours. You attended this church as a student for 2 years. My family was in the church for over 25 years. I joined the church in 1975, and was one of the first elders, back when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. Dale Sorbello and his family were also in the church for many, many years. I challenge you to find one thing that I have written on the Davis Wiki that is false. It is true, that when I first made entries to this sight, a few years ago, I used the pseudonym of Bob Smorelights. But soon afterwards, I removed the pseudonym and used my real name, to demonstrate my veracity. If you are interested in the truth, and don't trust the "personal vendettas" of former members, then I suggest you personally contact some of the other pastors in Davis. They have seen first hand the damage which Grace Valley Christian Center has done to people who leave. -- ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-03 07:42:40

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- I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regrettable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC]). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and far out-weighed by many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I experienced and witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendance, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regrettable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC]). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and out-weighed by many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I experienced and witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendance, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-03 07:40:54

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- I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC]). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and far out-weighed by many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I experienced and witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regrettable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC]). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and far out-weighed by many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I experienced and witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendance, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 15:33:10

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- * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, or your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church, ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew], certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, or your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 15:02:29

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- * This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- Here is a link to ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"]. ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- For those interested, here is a link to ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"]. ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 15:01:21

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- * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- Here is a link to ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"]. ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:57:36

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- = ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"] =	+ + = Recovering From Spiritual Abuse=

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:11:47

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- Hi, Michael. This is Clifton Burton (no this is not a pseudonym). I would like to respond to your note. First let's define our terms. Libel is defamation; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another. How do you know that the negative things written about this church by so many former members are false or unjustified? It is disturbing to you, and I can understand that. But they are describing their experience, not yours. You attended this church as a student for 2 years. My family was in the church for over 25 years. I joined the church in 1976, and was one of the first elders, back when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. Dale Sorbello and his family were also in the church for many many years. I challenge you to find one thing that I have written on the Davis Wiki that is false. It is true, that when I first made entries to this sight, a few years ago, I used the pseudonym of Bob Smorelights. But soon afterwards, I removed the pseudonym and used my real name, to demonstrate my veracity. If you are interested in the truth, and don't trust the "personal vendettas" of former members, then I suggest you personally contact some of the other pastors in Davis. They have seen first hand the damage which Grace Valley Christian Center has done to people who leave. --["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ Hi, Michael. This is Clifton Burton (no this is not a pseudonym). I would like to respond to your note. First let's define our terms. Libel is defamation; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another. How do you know that the negative things written about this church by so many former members are false or unjustified? It is disturbing to you, and I can understand that. But they are describing their experience, not yours. You attended this church as a student for 2 years. My family was in the church for over 25 years. I joined the church in 1975, and was one of the first elders, back when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. Dale Sorbello and his family were also in the church for many, many years. I challenge you to find one thing that I have written on the Davis Wiki that is false. It is true, that when I first made entries to this sight, a few years ago, I used the pseudonym of Bob Smorelights. But soon afterwards, I removed the pseudonym and used my real name, to demonstrate my veracity. If you are interested in the truth, and don't trust the "personal vendettas" of former members, then I suggest you personally contact some of the other pastors in Davis. They have seen first hand the damage which Grace Valley Christian Center has done to people who leave. --["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:07:58

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- *A response to my friend Jim Witt from Cliff Burton, concerning my leaving the church, here are some points that you may not be aware of:	+ *A response to my friend Jim Witt from Cliff Burton, concerning my leaving the church...
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- Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church'' ). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, and publicly vilified before the congregation as heretics and God-haters, as we were, and many other families who left before and after us.	+ Jim, here are some facts that you may not be aware of. You wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''for those not familiar with GVCC this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church'' ). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, and publicly vilified before the congregation as heretics and God-haters, as we were, and many other families who left before and after us.
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- What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently denounced by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ Also, you may not be aware of the fact that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently denounced by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.
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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC], Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below). I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC], Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below). The Burton's resignation letter was emailed to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:01:52

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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. See () Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC], Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below). I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:00:06

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- - - - * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, or your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church'' ). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, as we were, and many other families who left before us.	+ Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church'' ). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, and publicly vilified before the congregation as heretics and God-haters, as we were, and many other families who left before and after us.
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- What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently denounced by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.
Line 43:	Line 44:
- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. See () Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.
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	+ ---------- +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 13:42:55

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Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 13:39:41

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- I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC])). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"] -	+ I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC]). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and far out-weighed by many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I experienced and witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"] + ----------

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 13:34:24

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- I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC])). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC" Clifton Burton's Experience at GVCC])). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 13:30:30

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- I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]).	+ I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC])). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). Since we left in 2004, our family has experienced real healing, renewal and joy in the Holy Spirit, and we are faithfully attending church elsewhere --["Users/CliftonBurton"] +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 13:26:52

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	+ + I joined GVCC way back when the church was first formed, in 1975, when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. I have written an extensive testimony of some of my more regretable moments in this church (see). In all fairness, there were many happy times and wonderful experiences that I enjoyed in this place as well, but these are not articulated in my testimony, because the positive experiences there were tainted and are far out-weighed by the many sad experiences and deplorable practices that I witnessed. After more than 25 years of faithful attendence, I wrote a family letter of resignation to the Pastor, summarizing why we had to leave: (see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences/The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC" The Burton's Resignation Letter from GVCC]). +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

JasonAller — 2008-07-31 18:59:00

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- For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["EricaChaffin"]	+ For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["Users/EricaChaffin"]
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- * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- *Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I can’t understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I don’t sit here transformed by “fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation” from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, “that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning.” Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"]	+ *Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I can’t understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I don’t sit here transformed by “fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation” from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, “that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning.” Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["Users/EricaChaffin"]
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- *Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ *Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Master’s degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCC’s mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is “without hope and without God.” Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"]	+ I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Master’s degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCC’s mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is “without hope and without God.” Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["Users/GregPerry"]
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- It appears that you (Greg Perry and Erica Chaffin) became Christians at GVCC. If so, the only model of church leadership you know is GVCC's. I don't question your sincerity or your salvation, but to ignore and/or discount other Christians' concerns with the unbibical practices occurring at GVCC is exactly why they continue. These practices "bring the way of truth into disrepute" (2Pet. 2:2); they are not only recognized as unbiblical by the other evangelical churches in Davis, but they are bringing reproach to the name of Christ among the unbelievers. Let the Gospel be the offense and don't cover sin with a theological cloak.--["ChristianDemetrius"]	+ It appears that you (Greg Perry and Erica Chaffin) became Christians at GVCC. If so, the only model of church leadership you know is GVCC's. I don't question your sincerity or your salvation, but to ignore and/or discount other Christians' concerns with the unbibical practices occurring at GVCC is exactly why they continue. These practices "bring the way of truth into disrepute" (2Pet. 2:2); they are not only recognized as unbiblical by the other evangelical churches in Davis, but they are bringing reproach to the name of Christ among the unbelievers. Let the Gospel be the offense and don't cover sin with a theological cloak.--["Users/ChristianDemetrius"]
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- * Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["DomenicSantangelo"]	+ * Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["Users/DomenicSantangelo"]
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- P.S. I still consider you a friend, and pray for you and Terry. Hope everything is going well with you and yours. --["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ P.S. I still consider you a friend, and pray for you and Terry. Hope everything is going well with you and yours. --["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehovah Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"]	+ CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehovah Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["Users/JoyfulPilgrim"]
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- * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["DomenicSantangelo"]	+ * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["Users/DomenicSantangelo"]
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- * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'')	+ * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["Users/KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'')
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- * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churches. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle]	+ * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churches. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["Users/JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle]
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- ''2007-03-14 17:06:36'' [[nbsp]] I was married at Grace Valley Christian Center in September. (I'm not going to say what year.) A month after my marriage, my wife went to an appointment with the pastor and came home saying he and the elders of the church wanted to meet with me that Saturday. When Saturday came, I didn't know what was up. Were they going to congratulate me for something? When I went into the conference room, ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] launched an attack. His first words were, "I have been counseling your wife to leave you." (What happened to "Till death do us part?") He then told me that I was like a dog who returned again and again to eat its own vomit. My crime? Having a job while I was in school, rather than quitting and being a full-time student! I was devastated, and told my wife I would never set foot in the church again. I stayed away from church the next day, but my elder called me Sunday evening and said that ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] had simply lost his temper with me because he loved me. Unbelievably, I went back. --["DogBarf"]	+ ''2007-03-14 17:06:36'' [[nbsp]] I was married at Grace Valley Christian Center in September. (I'm not going to say what year.) A month after my marriage, my wife went to an appointment with the pastor and came home saying he and the elders of the church wanted to meet with me that Saturday. When Saturday came, I didn't know what was up. Were they going to congratulate me for something? When I went into the conference room, ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] launched an attack. His first words were, "I have been counseling your wife to leave you." (What happened to "Till death do us part?") He then told me that I was like a dog who returned again and again to eat its own vomit. My crime? Having a job while I was in school, rather than quitting and being a full-time student! I was devastated, and told my wife I would never set foot in the church again. I stayed away from church the next day, but my elder called me Sunday evening and said that ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] had simply lost his temper with me because he loved me. Unbelievably, I went back. --["Users/DogBarf"]
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- * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["BrentLaabs"] - * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["KarlMogel" KJM]	+ * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["Users/BrentLaabs"] + * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["Users/KarlMogel" KJM]
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- * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the church was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remember that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen] - * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["JosephBleckman"] - * I am in the process of contacting the University Administration about what has been said here. However, since most of the stories are given on anonymous accounts and/or new accounts where we don't know you, people will have to meet in person with University officials. Hopefully this will be on an anonymous basis, so there is no fear of reprisal. All I can do is get the ball rolling, because I have no personal knowledge about Grace Alive other than their yellow posters. Details to come. --["BrentLaabs"]	+ * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the church was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remember that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["Users/ArlenAbraham" arlen] + * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["Users/JosephBleckman"] + * I am in the process of contacting the University Administration about what has been said here. However, since most of the stories are given on anonymous accounts and/or new accounts where we don't know you, people will have to meet in person with University officials. Hopefully this will be on an anonymous basis, so there is no fear of reprisal. All I can do is get the ball rolling, because I have no personal knowledge about Grace Alive other than their yellow posters. Details to come. --["Users/BrentLaabs"]
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- * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of weird abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occasions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of weird abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occasions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["Users/CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2008-02-02 12:20:01

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- ''2007-03-14 17:06:36'' [[nbsp]] I was married at Grace Valley Christian Center in September. (I'm not going to say what year.) A month after my marriage, my wife went to an appointment with the pastor and came home saying he and the elders of the church wanted to meet with me that Saturday. When Saturday came, I didn't know what was up. Were they going to congratulate me for something? When I went into the conference room, Pastor launched an attack. His first words were, "I have been counseling your wife to leave you." (What happened to "Till death do us part?") He then told me that I was like a dog who returned again and again to eat its own vomit. My crime? Having a job while I was in school, rather than quitting and being a full-time student! I was devastated, and told my wife I would never set foot in the church again. I stayed away from church the next day, but my elder called me Sunday evening and said that Pastor had simply lost his temper with me because he loved me. Unbelievably, I went back. --["DogBarf"]	+ ''2007-03-14 17:06:36'' [[nbsp]] I was married at Grace Valley Christian Center in September. (I'm not going to say what year.) A month after my marriage, my wife went to an appointment with the pastor and came home saying he and the elders of the church wanted to meet with me that Saturday. When Saturday came, I didn't know what was up. Were they going to congratulate me for something? When I went into the conference room, ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] launched an attack. His first words were, "I have been counseling your wife to leave you." (What happened to "Till death do us part?") He then told me that I was like a dog who returned again and again to eat its own vomit. My crime? Having a job while I was in school, rather than quitting and being a full-time student! I was devastated, and told my wife I would never set foot in the church again. I stayed away from church the next day, but my elder called me Sunday evening and said that ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor] had simply lost his temper with me because he loved me. Unbelievably, I went back. --["DogBarf"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2008-01-31 12:16:37

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- What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" the Pastor] not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2008-01-31 12:14:20

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- What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, Gerrit Buddingh and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh] and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2008-01-28 22:06:17

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- "2007-10-25" For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ "2007-10-25" For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://www.ubf-net.de/doc/pile.en.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Truth — 2008-01-26 09:27:47

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- *** Erica out of genuine concern for you I am asking you to really really prayerfully consider what has been asked of you and your precious fiance' ,forgive my spelling,(who I have known for over 15 years). I can not make factual claims about your church since I have never attended. However I do know that my friend had to go through countless steps from your church to even be given the "ok" to date you .Then when wanting to ask you to marry him a decision that needs to be between God, the two in question and the blessing of both families involved, he was asked to come before the leaders of the church. Then you were asked to do the same thus there went the suprise and joy of the whole situation. The other things that you have been asked to do in light of your wedding planning are UNHEARD of an any other evangelical church. I have no doubt that there are many fine Christians at this church but even we as humans make mistakes thinking we are doing the right thing. - I prayed before I even wrote this because I am certainly not of the authority to question a church as a whole but I am of the authority as a sister in Christ to ask you to be careful and if you are okay with what has been asked of you than blessings to you. But I have seen my friend since the engagement and he is not the same person....... much stress has been placed on him and he is a MAN OF GOD!!!!!!!!	+

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Truth — 2008-01-25 19:45:42

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	+ + *** Erica out of genuine concern for you I am asking you to really really prayerfully consider what has been asked of you and your precious fiance' ,forgive my spelling,(who I have known for over 15 years). I can not make factual claims about your church since I have never attended. However I do know that my friend had to go through countless steps from your church to even be given the "ok" to date you .Then when wanting to ask you to marry him a decision that needs to be between God, the two in question and the blessing of both families involved, he was asked to come before the leaders of the church. Then you were asked to do the same thus there went the suprise and joy of the whole situation. The other things that you have been asked to do in light of your wedding planning are UNHEARD of an any other evangelical church. I have no doubt that there are many fine Christians at this church but even we as humans make mistakes thinking we are doing the right thing. + I prayed before I even wrote this because I am certainly not of the authority to question a church as a whole but I am of the authority as a sister in Christ to ask you to be careful and if you are okay with what has been asked of you than blessings to you. But I have seen my friend since the engagement and he is not the same person....... much stress has been placed on him and he is a MAN OF GOD!!!!!!!!

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

TheoPaaske — 2007-12-21 12:58:30

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- - * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] - * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] -

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 20:54:13

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- * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us, at some point, would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 19:41:34

fixed typos

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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very beginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.
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- CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehoveh Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"]	+ CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehovah Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"]
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- * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churchs. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle]	+ * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churches. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle]
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- * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the chruch was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remeber that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen]	+ * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the church was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remember that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen]
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- * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of wierd abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occassions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]	+ * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of weird abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occasions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with '''our''' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with our father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 19:36:01

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"	+ * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with '''our''' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 18:36:27

fixed typo

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * Admitedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ * Admittedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] "2007-10-29"

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 18:06:22

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

No differences found!

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 18:02:50

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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- * Admitedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us at some point would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace].	+ * Admitedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are also, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us would, at some point, have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace]. -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-29 17:49:36

Added section/link: "Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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	+ + = ["Recovering From Spiritual Abuse"] = + + * Admitedly this is off topic. It's only a link. This discussion really is incomplete without an opportunity for those of us who have been wounded at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] to share how we are, by Christ’s grace, being healed. First I would like to thank all former GVCCers who have shared here, either by name or pseudonym. That took a lot of courage. I would also like to thank those who have defended GVCC. All of us at some point would have done the same. My prayer for you is that one day you will experience the same freedom in Christ that those of us who have left are now experiencing. Though you may find it hard to believe, we love you in the Lord. Some day we'll be together, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9KQ7V-_FY dancing with ''our'' father God in fields of grace].

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-25 19:51:44

added date of contrib

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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- For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ "2007-10-25" For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-25 19:49:16

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-25 19:47:43

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] -	+ * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Ron Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-25 19:45:39

quick edit

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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	+ -------------- + * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall] +
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- - * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 16:01:22

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 131:	Line 131:
- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course ["Reverend P. G. Mathew" Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 15:57:12

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

No differences found!

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 15:56:33

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 131:	Line 131:
- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/Gerrit Buddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/GerritBuddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 15:55:45

quick edit

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 131:	Line 131:
- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/buddingh.jpg Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of ["Users/Gerrit Buddingh" Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 14:45:34

quick edit

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 131:	Line 131:
- * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/buddingh.jpg Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]	+ * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/buddingh.jpg Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["Users/RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichLindvall — 2007-10-24 14:44:49

added our story

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 130:	Line 130:
	+ + * For five years we were members at ["Grace Valley Christian Center"]. As part of [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/buddingh.jpg Gerrit Buddingh's] "cell group" we became good friends with Clarks, Grensteds, Steven Smiths, Bonettis, [http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/ucda/sports/m-footbl/auto_headshot/p-Moroski03.jpg Mike Moroskis], Bassos, Lischeskes, Johnsons, [http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~spencer/ Spencers], Hashagens. Others we remember are the Spartzes, Chapmans, [http://www.teamdonatelife.com/images/dwightmorejohn.jpg Morejohns], Burtons, Manderfields, Sorbellos, Bimsons, Peter Droubays, Trotters, Dyers, Gianninis, [http://www.calnursesfoundation.org/images/lary.gif Farvers], Jackuras, Penas, Roths, [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/washabaugh.jpg Daniel Washabaughs], Robys, Thompsons, Gulys, Clumpners, and of course [http://www.gracevalley.org/images/pastor1sharpened.jpg Pastor P.G. Mathew] and Gladys. When we first began attending Grace Valley we felt as though we'd "died and gone to heaven." We experienced an amazing sense of belonging to a life-long group of committed believers. It was only after we began inquiring about the inner group known as "flock" that we became concerned about the extent of control the leadership exerted over people. In a series of "progressive revelation" one-on-one meetings with the leadership, we were gradually brought to an understanding as to what joining "flock" entailed. As it was finally explained to us, if we were in "flock" ''every area of our lives'' would be ''"on the table"'' for the leadership to touch. And the clinching question: ''"Do you trust God enough to allow Him to direct you through us?"'' Yikes! We understand the Biblical concept of discipleship, but this was something [http://gcmwarning.com/Articles/OtherSideDiscipleship.htm beyond that!] We also were becoming more aware of a pattern of [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Allegations public humiliation of members] who were "out of sync" with the [http://www.gracevalley.org/gvca/about/images/mathew.jpg leadership]. In 1992 we left GVCC over our concerns related to [http://www.spiritualabuse.com/ Spiritual abuse]. To this day we continue to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning shunned] by our friends there. (A number of friends who once shunned us have since left GVCC and are now shunned themselves.) -- ["RichLindvall" Rich Lindvall]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

DaleSorbello — 2007-08-17 22:24:21

Added links to some of the attachments referenced and included in the letter.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

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- Dale A. Sorbello''	+ Signatures of Dale A. Sorbello and other family members'' + + Attachments: Not all the attachments included in the letter are on the web. Links to the attachments currently accessible are as follows: + + www.founders.org/FJ15/article3.html + www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html + www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/whatis.html + www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3658/question.html

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CliftonBurton — 2007-08-09 09:59:06

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	+ + + * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] + + Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I can’t understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I don’t sit here transformed by “fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation” from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, “that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning.” Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"] + + Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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- - * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton] - - Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I can’t understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I don’t sit here transformed by “fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation” from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, “that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning.” Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"] - - Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-08-09 09:55:43

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	+ + Hi, Michael. This is Clifton Burton (no this is not a pseudonym). I would like to respond to your note. First let's define our terms. Libel is defamation; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another. How do you know that the negative things written about this church by so many former members are false or unjustified? It is disturbing to you, and I can understand that. But they are describing their experience, not yours. You attended this church as a student for 2 years. My family was in the church for over 25 years. I joined the church in 1976, and was one of the first elders, back when it was called Davis Evangelical Church. Dale Sorbello and his family were also in the church for many many years. I challenge you to find one thing that I have written on the Davis Wiki that is false. It is true, that when I first made entries to this sight, a few years ago, I used the pseudonym of Bob Smorelights. But soon afterwards, I removed the pseudonym and used my real name, to demonstrate my veracity. If you are interested in the truth, and don't trust the "personal vendettas" of former members, then I suggest you personally contact some of the other pastors in Davis. They have seen first hand the damage which Grace Valley Christian Center has done to people who leave. --["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

MichaelZhang — 2007-07-01 21:11:24

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	+ + I am a Berkeley computer science student that attended Grace Valley for two years while I was studying at UC Davis. When I came across this page, I was disgusted at how easily certain individuals can libel a church, a Pastor, and a community of Christians on a wiki that is supposed to provide useful and credible information about Davis to the community. On the Talk page for Grace Valley, Phillip writes: ''Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other (ref, ref) —PhilipNeustrom''. Why then, is the libel written by CliftonBurton still available on this page? It's obvious that "Bob" and "Clifton" were simply accounts created by an individual for the purpose of destroying the image of this church. Was DavisWiki intended to be a place where personal vendettas can be carried out publicly with lies and libel delivered from behind a mask of fake usernames? + + If DavisWiki aims to be a credible place for the community to obtain information about the city, this situation needs to be cleaned up. If you look at how Wikipedia operates, they refrain from linking to unfounded claims from articles unless there is tangible and sufficient evidence backing it up. Just my two cents. --["Users/MichaelZhang"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

MichaelZhang — 2007-07-01 20:50:12

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- * DogBarf: do you expect anyone to believe what you're saying here? Like many "users" on this page, it seems that your username exists for the sole purpose of attacking this church with baseless claims.	+ * DogBarf: do you expect anyone to believe what you're saying here? Like many "users" on this page, it seems that your username exists for the sole purpose of attacking this church with baseless claims. --["Users/MichaelZhang"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

MichaelZhang — 2007-07-01 20:49:48

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	+ * DogBarf: do you expect anyone to believe what you're saying here? Like many "users" on this page, it seems that your username exists for the sole purpose of attacking this church with baseless claims. +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

KaiTing — 2007-03-14 17:17:20

moved comment from /Allegations

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	+ ---------- + + ''2007-03-14 17:06:36'' [[nbsp]] I was married at Grace Valley Christian Center in September. (I'm not going to say what year.) A month after my marriage, my wife went to an appointment with the pastor and came home saying he and the elders of the church wanted to meet with me that Saturday. When Saturday came, I didn't know what was up. Were they going to congratulate me for something? When I went into the conference room, Pastor launched an attack. His first words were, "I have been counseling your wife to leave you." (What happened to "Till death do us part?") He then told me that I was like a dog who returned again and again to eat its own vomit. My crime? Having a job while I was in school, rather than quitting and being a full-time student! I was devastated, and told my wife I would never set foot in the church again. I stayed away from church the next day, but my elder called me Sunday evening and said that Pastor had simply lost his temper with me because he loved me. Unbelievably, I went back. --["DogBarf"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

JasonAller — 2007-03-06 23:32:00

fixed link to point to userpage

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- P.S. I still consider you a friend, and pray for you and Terry. Hope everything is going well with you and yours. --["Clifton Burton"]	+ P.S. I still consider you a friend, and pray for you and Terry. Hope everything is going well with you and yours. --["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-19 17:19:16

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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and was never given an opportunity to share my concerns. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and I was never even given an opportunity to speak. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there. Hope this clarifies things for you.
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- Hope this clarifies things for you. --["Clifton Burton"]	+ P.S. I still consider you a friend, and pray for you and Terry. Hope everything is going well with you and yours. --["Clifton Burton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-19 16:26:37

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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, and was never given an opportunity to share my concerns. Others families who did share their concerns with the elders were similarly mistreated. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. (This was about a week before we wrote our letter of resignation). From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, was told that I was rebellious and stubborn, and was never given an opportunity to share my concerns. Others families who went to the elders meetings to share their concerns experienced similarly treatment or worse. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-19 16:21:12

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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, no one in their right mind would try to communicate anything critical to the elders in person. Those who have attempted to do so have been subjected to lengthy meetings of psychological terror. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be absolutely unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, why do we write publicly concerning these issues? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves experienced there.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, we did attempt to do that 2 years before we left the church. I went in to the elders meeting with a list of questions and concerns. From the very begginning of the meeting I was treated with ridicule and contempt, was repeatedly interrupted, and was never given an opportunity to share my concerns. Others families who did share their concerns with the elders were similarly mistreated. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, what is the point in publicly airing these concerns? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves and many other families experienced there.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

SteveOstrowski — 2007-01-17 17:43:17

This page is a mess.

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	+ + = Positive Section Debate = +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-17 17:34:47

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- I, JoyfulPilgrim, would like to say that the "CAUTION!" description below is a result of my own "testimony" - my eyewitness account. [Remainder of comment was deleted by JoyfulPilgrim.]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-17 17:24:26

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- A response to my friend Jim Witt - Concerning my leaving the church, here are some points that he may not be aware of:	+ *A response to my friend Jim Witt from Cliff Burton, concerning my leaving the church, here are some points that you may not be aware of:
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- Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''Italic text'' this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church ''Italic text''). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, as we were, and many other families who left before us.	+ Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church'' ). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, as we were, and many other families who left before us.
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- What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, Gerrit Buddingh and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, and that, subsequently, we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.	+ What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, Gerrit Buddingh and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, the implication being that we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way.
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- Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found in = Negative Stories and Responses to Them =. If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, no one in their right mind would try to communicate anything critical to the elders in person. Those who have attempted to do so have been subjected to a lengthy meeting of psychological terror. Since the leadership is absolutely unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, why do we write publicly concerning these issues? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves experienced there.	+ Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found below. I emailed a letter to Gerrit Buddingh and forwarded it to over 40 individuals in the church. So we hardly chose to "disappear one day without notice". If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, no one in their right mind would try to communicate anything critical to the elders in person. Those who have attempted to do so have been subjected to lengthy meetings of psychological terror. Since the leadership has repeatedly shown itself to be absolutely unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, why do we write publicly concerning these issues? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves experienced there.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

CliftonBurton — 2007-01-17 17:05:03

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	+ + A response to my friend Jim Witt + Concerning my leaving the church, here are some points that he may not be aware of: + + Jim, you wrote: “Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program (''Italic text'' this is referring to a subset of the church members who make a life-time commitment to the church ''Italic text''). At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not.” What you must understand is that when we began to discover the problems in the church (see ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] ), we had no desire to be released from our lifetime commitment to flock and continue as members of GVCC. We wanted to leave the church and withdraw our membership. Therein is the rub. Those who attempt to leave because they are not happy with the church are not released, but are excommunicated, as we were, and many other families who left before us. + + What you may not be aware of is that we (the Burtons) attempted to leave the church 2 years prior to our actual leaving. One Sunday night we wrote a letter of resignation to the church, explaining why we were leaving– our daughter had been excommunicated by the church and we were told by the Pastor not to have social visits with our daughter. The following evening two elders, Gerrit Buddingh and Ron Guly, showed up at my house to inform us that we had misunderstood the Pastor, and that, subsequently, we had no grounds for leaving. My wife, fearing that we would be excommunicated, convinced me that we should return to the church. A few days later we were told by Gerrit that our letter of resignation was “a drive-by shooting”. We were subsequently vilified by the elders and shunned by many people in the church. On a flock night Pastor called my wife a “loose cannon” from the pulpit, and said that people should not associate with a loose cannon. So much for trying to leave the right way. + + You also wrote: “I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members.” + + Actually, we did address our concerns with the church leadership. Both the Burtons and the Sorbellos wrote letters to the Pastor and/or the elders. Mr. Sorbello’s letter can be found in = Negative Stories and Responses to Them =. If, by “direct communication”, you mean in person, well, no one in their right mind would try to communicate anything critical to the elders in person. Those who have attempted to do so have been subjected to a lengthy meeting of psychological terror. Since the leadership is absolutely unwilling to hear, let alone to receive criticism, why do we write publicly concerning these issues? It is for the benefit of those in the community, to spare them the troubles that we ourselves experienced there. + + Hope this clarifies things for you. --["Clifton Burton"] +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

KaiTing — 2006-12-12 13:33:30

removed "a reading for future contributors"

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- - = A Reading for Future Contributors = - - I humbly request that all future contributors to this page read the following quote and reflect on it for at least 5 minutes before contributions. --["AlexanderWoo"] - - ''The Christian knows that there are radically sound possibilities in every man, and he believes that love and grace always have the power to bring out those possibilities in the most unexpected moments. Therefore if he has hopes that God will grant peace to the world it is because he also trusts that man, God's creature, is not basically evil: that there is in man a potentiality for peace and order which can be realized provided the right conditions are there. The Christian will do his part in creating these conditions by preferring love and trust to hate and suspiciousness. - '''Thomas Merton''' ''

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

KaiTing — 2006-12-12 07:21:17

moved comment from /Talk

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-	+ I was raised in a Christian home. I am now 57 years old and my church and faith experiences are not limited to my 20 year membership at GVCC. I have remained silent for some time now, hoping that those who are speaking against the members and leadership of GVCC would realize their error and would remove their postings. Unfortunately, that has not happened and I feel compelled to provide greater clarity concerning the allegations against GVCC. I write primarily concerning the comments made by Cliff Burton. You see…..he was my best friend for over 15 years, all of which were at GVCC. Our families had many blessed memories sharing church activities together as well as developing deep emotional and spiritual bonds at church, in each others’ homes, and in our personal activities. Therefore, I have been devastated to see my best friend choose the path he has taken. There is little I can say that would disparage Cliff during those years of friendship. However, both Cliff Burton and Dale Sorbello have omitted important details in their written statements concerning the church and its’ members. As other members have written here, and as I write, GVCC holds the highest standard when it comes to obedience to God’s word as presented in the bible. As a Christian, I would never want godly leaders to compromise the truth concerning eternal issues. This is truly a rare opportunity offered by GVCC for one who wants to grow spiritually. GVCC provides an opportunity for more meaningful discipleship, teaching, counsel, fellowship, and correction to those members who invite this oversight into their lives. Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program. At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not. Several times, over several years, I sat with Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello in church meetings when it was publicly stated by the leadership of GVCC, that those who no longer wished to participate in the discipleship program, could voluntarily discontinue their participation. I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members. Prior to, and after his leaving, I spoke to and wrote Cliff over these issues, so this information will not come as a surprise to him. I continue to pray for the Burtons and Sorbello families. I also invite anyone who wants to see God’s love in action, to visit GVCC and see for yourself what God is doing in His love and faithfulness. --["Jim Witt"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

PhilipNeustrom — 2006-11-16 00:02:46

fixed some characters

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- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.
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- *Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I cant understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I dont sit here transformed by fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning. Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"]	+ *Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I can’t understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I don’t sit here transformed by “fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation” from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, “that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning.” Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"]
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- I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Masters degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCCs mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is without hope and without God. Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"]	+ I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Master’s degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCC’s mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is “without hope and without God.” Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"]
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- I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for getting out of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld	+ I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for “getting out” of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld
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- The following is a copy of the letter we sent to Grace Valley leaders explaining why my family and I decided to leave. It reflected our concerns about Grace Valley as of December 2001. Since leaving, my family and I have been consistently shunned by Grace Valley members. Stories we have heard about why we left and what we have done since leaving have shocked us. We have been accused of seeking to divide the church, and have been characterized and called spiritual terrorists, agents of Satan, and other less-than-complimentary descriptors. From what we have heard, the sin of pride was the primary explanation given by the leaders of Grace Valley for our downfall indeed, pride is a sin that besets us it besets all of Adams race. As C.S. Lewis insightfully observed, Yes, pride is a perpetual nagging temptation. Keep on knocking it on the head but dont be too worried about it. As long as one knows one is proud one is safe from the worst form of pride. Our greatest surprise upon leaving is that the practices of the church that led to our leaving were much more serious and pervasive than we were even aware. However, the control of information through such practices of shunning has been very effective at limiting members access to the rest of the story of those who leave. In the final analysis, our reputation with God is all that really matters since each of us will give an account of himself to God. May we all conduct ourselves in view of this sober reality. - Dale Sorbello	+ The following is a copy of the letter we sent to Grace Valley leaders explaining why my family and I decided to leave. It reflected our concerns about Grace Valley as of December 2001. Since leaving, my family and I have been consistently shunned by Grace Valley members. Stories we have heard about why we left and what we have done since leaving have shocked us. We have been accused of seeking to divide the church, and have been characterized and called “spiritual terrorists,” “agents of Satan,” and other less-than-complimentary descriptors. From what we have heard, the sin of pride was the primary explanation given by the leaders of Grace Valley for our downfall – indeed, pride is a sin that besets us – it besets all of Adam’s race. As C.S. Lewis insightfully observed, “Yes, pride is a perpetual nagging temptation. Keep on knocking it on the head but don’t be too worried about it. As long as one knows one is proud one is safe from the worst form of pride.” Our greatest surprise upon leaving is that the practices of the church that led to our leaving were much more serious and pervasive than we were even aware. However, the control of information through such practices of shunning has been very effective at limiting members’ access to “the rest of the story” of those who leave. In the final analysis, our reputation with God is all that really matters since “each of us will give an account of himself to God.” May we all conduct ourselves in view of this sober reality. - Dale Sorbello
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- Specifically, I believe that spiritual authority is often being wielded in a very severe, harsh, and inappropriate manner. At Pastor Mathews direction, my son and one of my daughters have met with him many times in the past six months. They report that, during these meetings, my authority in the home was undermined, evil was spoken of both their mother and myself, unsubstantiated accusations were made, and they were confronted abusively and with crude language. Moreover, Bethany was told not to tell others in the home about what was said during one of the meetings, which is usually a warning sign that something inappropriate is occurring. The general impression was that an attempt was being made to divide the family, to usurp parental authority and to replace it with the authority of the churchhence the vociferous criticism of the parents and other siblings. Both children found the approach and content of these meetings very troubling, as do I. Bethanys experiences have been so disturbing that I told her not to have any further meetings with Pastor unless I was present.	+ Specifically, I believe that spiritual authority is often being wielded in a very severe, harsh, and inappropriate manner. At Pastor Mathew’s direction, my son and one of my daughters have met with him many times in the past six months. They report that, during these meetings, my authority in the home was undermined, evil was spoken of both their mother and myself, unsubstantiated accusations were made, and they were confronted abusively and with crude language. Moreover, Bethany was told not to tell others in the home about what was said during one of the meetings, which is usually a warning sign that something inappropriate is occurring. The general impression was that an attempt was being made to divide the family, to usurp parental authority and to replace it with the authority of the church—hence the vociferous criticism of the parents and other siblings. Both children found the approach and content of these meetings very troubling, as do I. Bethany’s experiences have been so disturbing that I told her not to have any further meetings with Pastor unless I was present.
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- I am not sure how frequently this approach in ministering to people is practiced, but it appears our experiences are not isolated events. This past summer a man came into a Saturday morning leaders meeting seeking counsel about a personal matter involving his daughter. The man was treated in an extremely harsh, berating fashion. This occurred in the presence of most of you. I am ashamed for not rising to the mans defense. Although he has issues requiring serious ministry, this needy man who was seeking help received instead what I would describe as humiliating and abusive treatment. A related concern is my observation that information given in confidence is sometimes disclosed publicly, and that some individuals are publicly berated. This compromises church members willingness to seek help when needed. I am aware of several current members who are unwilling to seek help for fear that their sensitive personal situations may be disclosed, or that they may be treated abusively in counsel.	+ I am not sure how frequently this approach in ministering to people is practiced, but it appears our experiences are not isolated events. This past summer a man came into a Saturday morning leaders’ meeting seeking counsel about a personal matter involving his daughter. The man was treated in an extremely harsh, berating fashion. This occurred in the presence of most of you. I am ashamed for not rising to the man’s defense. Although he has issues requiring serious ministry, this needy man who was seeking help received instead what I would describe as humiliating and abusive treatment. A related concern is my observation that information given in confidence is sometimes disclosed publicly, and that some individuals are publicly berated. This compromises church members’ willingness to seek help when needed. I am aware of several current members who are unwilling to seek help for fear that their sensitive personal situations may be disclosed, or that they may be treated abusively in counsel.
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- My second general concern relates to the church leaders expectations and practices with respect to the extent of their involvement in the members lives. Without question, a true church has a biblical mandate to speak what the Bible has spoken. Conversely, the church must take care not to speak where God has not. I have observed that church leaders are often directive in areas where Christians have liberty; members are expected to consult with leadership on such issues as dating, living arrangements, travel, etc., and are criticized if consultation is not sought. While seeking and heeding godly counsel is encouraged in Scripture, I believe the extent to which church leaders often speak into members lives (or about which the leaders expect members to seek counsel) frequently transcends biblical boundaries, or intrudes into areas where Gods Word gives Christians liberty. Voluntarily seeking such counsel may be prudent; however, establishing an expectation or unspoken requirement that this occur is not appropriate, particularly when there is a clear expectation that all counsel be followed with uncritical acceptance, as if it were Gods own Word.	+ My second general concern relates to the church leaders’ expectations and practices with respect to the extent of their involvement in the members’ lives. Without question, a true church has a biblical mandate to speak what the Bible has spoken. Conversely, the church must take care not to speak where God has not. I have observed that church leaders are often directive in areas where Christians have liberty; members are expected to consult with leadership on such issues as dating, living arrangements, travel, etc., and are criticized if consultation is not sought. While seeking and heeding godly counsel is encouraged in Scripture, I believe the extent to which church leaders often speak into members’ lives (or about which the leaders expect members to seek counsel) frequently transcends biblical boundaries, or intrudes into areas where God’s Word gives Christians liberty. Voluntarily seeking such counsel may be prudent; however, establishing an expectation or unspoken requirement that this occur is not appropriate, particularly when there is a clear expectation that all counsel be followed with uncritical acceptance, as if it were God’s own Word.
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- All leaders must be accountable if a church is to be protected from serious error; this can only occur when input is sought, questions are welcomed, disagreement is not perceived as threatening, and an environment promoting healthy discussion is fostered. Though it may exist at some level, my experience suggests that most leaders and other church members feel intimidated and very reticent to question or differ with Pastor Mathew. When people are silenced by fearafraid of castigation, humiliation, or even shunningthe church is harmed. Unbridled authority vested in a leader endangers the church by nullifying the checks and balances critical for maintaining the integrity and doctrinal purity of any organization of fallible men.	+ All leaders must be accountable if a church is to be protected from serious error; this can only occur when input is sought, questions are welcomed, disagreement is not perceived as threatening, and an environment promoting healthy discussion is fostered. Though it may exist at some level, my experience suggests that most leaders and other church members feel intimidated and very reticent to question or differ with Pastor Mathew. When people are silenced by fear—afraid of castigation, humiliation, or even shunning—the church is harmed. Unbridled authority vested in a leader endangers the church by nullifying the ‘checks and balances’ critical for maintaining the integrity and doctrinal purity of any organization of fallible men.
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- Being very troubled by these issues, I prayed earnestly, sought the Scriptures for understanding, and conducted research. Subsequently, I have become convinced that there is an approach to dealing with Gods people at GVCC that is not only unbiblical, but that can be legitimately characterized in some instances as aberrant and abusive. Moreover, I became increasingly uncomfortable when I discovered numerous articles (sample enclosed) from a variety of evangelical writers that consistently describe an errant pattern of church behavior that is disturbingly similar to GVCC.	+ Being very troubled by these issues, I prayed earnestly, sought the Scriptures for understanding, and conducted research. Subsequently, I have become convinced that there is an approach to dealing with God’s people at GVCC that is not only unbiblical, but that can be legitimately characterized in some instances as aberrant and abusive. Moreover, I became increasingly uncomfortable when I discovered numerous articles (sample enclosed) from a variety of evangelical writers that consistently describe an errant pattern of church behavior that is disturbingly similar to GVCC.
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- I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations that may impair my objectivity. However, I pray my concerns will not be summarily dismissed but, instead, be evaluated in light of Scripture and with prayer. Rather than portraying this letter as evidence of my familys pride, arrogance, and refusal to submit to the Kingdom of God, please consider that God may be saying something to promote the greater interests of the Gospel through GVCC. My family and I care deeply about GVCC and, for 16 years, have invested our lives and our resources that the church might prosper. Few things have been as difficult as wrestling with this matter; my decision is costly. Nevertheless, to remain silent and passive about these concerns would constitute a dereliction of my duty to protect and ensure the spiritual welfare of my family and would be neglecting my duty before God.	+ I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations that may impair my objectivity. However, I pray my concerns will not be summarily dismissed but, instead, be evaluated in light of Scripture and with prayer. Rather than portraying this letter as evidence of my family’s pride, arrogance, and refusal to submit to the Kingdom of God, please consider that God may be saying something to promote the greater interests of the Gospel through GVCC. My family and I care deeply about GVCC and, for 16 years, have invested our lives and our resources that the church might prosper. Few things have been as difficult as wrestling with this matter; my decision is costly. Nevertheless, to remain silent and passive about these concerns would constitute a dereliction of my duty to protect and ensure the spiritual welfare of my family and would be neglecting my duty before God.
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- Thank you for the many years of ministry rendered to my family. We have benefited greatly from the rich teaching and the fellowship with other committed Christians who are serious about walking with Christ. Our covenant with GVCC was predicated upon our and the churchs continuing faithfulness to Scripture. The membership document states that we would be disfellowshipped if we . . . refuse to repent of any sins but continue in them in spite of the repeated exhortations and warnings by the council of elders. We have kept our covenantal commitments; we have not been unrepentant when confronted about sin. We have sought Gods forgiveness; we have struggled in prayer, fasting, and study; we will continue to strive to overcome sin. Sadly, however, I believe the church leadership has broken its covenant with us, as described in this letter. Our departure, therefore, must not be construed as a rejection of the wonderful and godly people who comprise GVCC but, rather, as an expression of the seriousness of my concerns that compel me, along with my family, to find a fellowship of believers where the leadership practices a biblical approach to shepherding the sheep.	+ Thank you for the many years of ministry rendered to my family. We have benefited greatly from the rich teaching and the fellowship with other committed Christians who are serious about walking with Christ. Our covenant with GVCC was predicated upon our and the church’s continuing faithfulness to Scripture. The membership document states that we would be disfellowshipped if we “. . . refuse to repent of any sins but continue in them in spite of the repeated exhortations and warnings by the council of elders.” We have kept our covenantal commitments; we have not been unrepentant when confronted about sin. We have sought God’s forgiveness; we have struggled in prayer, fasting, and study; we will continue to strive to overcome sin. Sadly, however, I believe the church leadership has broken its covenant with us, as described in this letter. Our departure, therefore, must not be construed as a rejection of the wonderful and godly people who comprise GVCC but, rather, as an expression of the seriousness of my concerns that compel me, along with my family, to find a fellowship of believers where the leadership practices a biblical approach to shepherding the sheep.
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Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RoyWright — 2006-01-28 16:55:54

Moved UC Davis intelligence-related comments to my page.

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- * What, you don't think people at Stanford U. are, on average, more intelligent than those at UC Davis? (Not that it justifies the comment in question...) --["RoyWright"] - * Of course they are not. Without getting into a long spiel about the nature of inteligence, let me simply say that having a name brand focus, espescially at such a young age, can be problematic to one's mental development. Not nessecarily insurmountable, but problematic nevertheless. Perhaps I was wrong, though, to imply that Davis is the utmost paramount of inteligence. Its up there, yes, but among many equals. --["JosephBleckman"] -	+
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- Rev. P. G. Mathew, Elders, and Leaders - Grace Valley Christian Center - 27173 Road 98 - Davis, CA 95616-9742	+ Rev. P. G. Mathew, Elders, and Leaders Grace Valley Christian Center 27173 Road 98 Davis, CA 95616-9742

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

JosephBleckman — 2006-01-28 11:26:08

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	+ * Of course they are not. Without getting into a long spiel about the nature of inteligence, let me simply say that having a name brand focus, espescially at such a young age, can be problematic to one's mental development. Not nessecarily insurmountable, but problematic nevertheless. Perhaps I was wrong, though, to imply that Davis is the utmost paramount of inteligence. Its up there, yes, but among many equals. --["JosephBleckman"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RoyWright — 2006-01-28 11:11:13

Comment added.

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	+ * What, you don't think people at Stanford U. are, on average, more intelligent than those at UC Davis? (Not that it justifies the comment in question...) --["RoyWright"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

EdwinSaada — 2006-01-28 11:03:02

undoing...didn't look nice that way. line spacing issue?

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- '''[The following is a verbatim copy of our letter resigning our membership from Grace Valley]''' - {{{	+ '''[The following is a verbatim copy of our letter resigning our membership from Grace Valley - please do not edit.]''' +
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- }}}	+

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

EdwinSaada — 2006-01-28 11:02:11

{{{letter }}}. no one would/should touch it now.

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- '''[The following is a verbatim copy of our letter resigning our membership from Grace Valley please do not edit]''' -	+ '''[The following is a verbatim copy of our letter resigning our membership from Grace Valley]''' + {{{
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Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

DaleSorbello — 2006-01-28 10:52:12

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- The following is a copy of the letter we sent to Grace Valley leaders explaining why my family and I decided to leave. It reflected our concerns about Grace Valley as of December 2001. Since leaving, my family and I have been consistently shunned by Grace Valley members. Stories we have heard about why we left and what we have done since leaving have shocked us. We have been accused of seeking to divide the church, and have been characterized and called spiritual terrorists, agents of Satan, and other less-than-complimentary descriptors. From what we have heard, the sin of pride was the primary explanation given by the leaders of Grace Valley for our downfall indeed, pride is a sin that besets us it besets all of Adams race. As C.S. Lewis insightfully observed, Yes, pride is a perpetual nagging temptation. Keep on knocking it on the head but dont be too worried about it. As long as one knows one is proud one is safe from the worst form of pride. Our greatest surprise upon leaving is that the practices of the church that led to our leaving were much more serious and pervasive than we were even aware. However, the control of information through such practices of shunning has been very effective at limiting members access to the rest of the story of those who leave. In the final analysis, our reputation with God is all that really matters since each of us will give an account of himself to God. May we all conduct ourselves in view of this sober reality.	+ The following is a copy of the letter we sent to Grace Valley leaders explaining why my family and I decided to leave. It reflected our concerns about Grace Valley as of December 2001. Since leaving, my family and I have been consistently shunned by Grace Valley members. Stories we have heard about why we left and what we have done since leaving have shocked us. We have been accused of seeking to divide the church, and have been characterized and called spiritual terrorists, agents of Satan, and other less-than-complimentary descriptors. From what we have heard, the sin of pride was the primary explanation given by the leaders of Grace Valley for our downfall indeed, pride is a sin that besets us it besets all of Adams race. As C.S. Lewis insightfully observed, Yes, pride is a perpetual nagging temptation. Keep on knocking it on the head but dont be too worried about it. As long as one knows one is proud one is safe from the worst form of pride. Our greatest surprise upon leaving is that the practices of the church that led to our leaving were much more serious and pervasive than we were even aware. However, the control of information through such practices of shunning has been very effective at limiting members access to the rest of the story of those who leave. In the final analysis, our reputation with God is all that really matters since each of us will give an account of himself to God. May we all conduct ourselves in view of this sober reality. - Dale Sorbello

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

DaleSorbello — 2006-01-28 10:50:02

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	+ ---------- + The following is a copy of the letter we sent to Grace Valley leaders explaining why my family and I decided to leave. It reflected our concerns about Grace Valley as of December 2001. Since leaving, my family and I have been consistently shunned by Grace Valley members. Stories we have heard about why we left and what we have done since leaving have shocked us. We have been accused of seeking to divide the church, and have been characterized and called spiritual terrorists, agents of Satan, and other less-than-complimentary descriptors. From what we have heard, the sin of pride was the primary explanation given by the leaders of Grace Valley for our downfall indeed, pride is a sin that besets us it besets all of Adams race. As C.S. Lewis insightfully observed, Yes, pride is a perpetual nagging temptation. Keep on knocking it on the head but dont be too worried about it. As long as one knows one is proud one is safe from the worst form of pride. Our greatest surprise upon leaving is that the practices of the church that led to our leaving were much more serious and pervasive than we were even aware. However, the control of information through such practices of shunning has been very effective at limiting members access to the rest of the story of those who leave. In the final analysis, our reputation with God is all that really matters since each of us will give an account of himself to God. May we all conduct ourselves in view of this sober reality. + + '''[The following is a verbatim copy of our letter resigning our membership from Grace Valley please do not edit]''' + + ''December 4, 2001 + + + Rev. P. G. Mathew, Elders, and Leaders + Grace Valley Christian Center + 27173 Road 98 + Davis, CA 95616-9742 + + Gentlemen: + + The purpose of this letter is to ask that my name be removed from the membership roll of Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC). In good conscience, I can no longer support, submit to, nor maintain membership in the church because of what I believe are unbiblical practices occurring with respect to the exercise of spiritual authority. + + Specifically, I believe that spiritual authority is often being wielded in a very severe, harsh, and inappropriate manner. At Pastor Mathews direction, my son and one of my daughters have met with him many times in the past six months. They report that, during these meetings, my authority in the home was undermined, evil was spoken of both their mother and myself, unsubstantiated accusations were made, and they were confronted abusively and with crude language. Moreover, Bethany was told not to tell others in the home about what was said during one of the meetings, which is usually a warning sign that something inappropriate is occurring. The general impression was that an attempt was being made to divide the family, to usurp parental authority and to replace it with the authority of the churchhence the vociferous criticism of the parents and other siblings. Both children found the approach and content of these meetings very troubling, as do I. Bethanys experiences have been so disturbing that I told her not to have any further meetings with Pastor unless I was present. + + I am not sure how frequently this approach in ministering to people is practiced, but it appears our experiences are not isolated events. This past summer a man came into a Saturday morning leaders meeting seeking counsel about a personal matter involving his daughter. The man was treated in an extremely harsh, berating fashion. This occurred in the presence of most of you. I am ashamed for not rising to the mans defense. Although he has issues requiring serious ministry, this needy man who was seeking help received instead what I would describe as humiliating and abusive treatment. A related concern is my observation that information given in confidence is sometimes disclosed publicly, and that some individuals are publicly berated. This compromises church members willingness to seek help when needed. I am aware of several current members who are unwilling to seek help for fear that their sensitive personal situations may be disclosed, or that they may be treated abusively in counsel. + + My second general concern relates to the church leaders expectations and practices with respect to the extent of their involvement in the members lives. Without question, a true church has a biblical mandate to speak what the Bible has spoken. Conversely, the church must take care not to speak where God has not. I have observed that church leaders are often directive in areas where Christians have liberty; members are expected to consult with leadership on such issues as dating, living arrangements, travel, etc., and are criticized if consultation is not sought. While seeking and heeding godly counsel is encouraged in Scripture, I believe the extent to which church leaders often speak into members lives (or about which the leaders expect members to seek counsel) frequently transcends biblical boundaries, or intrudes into areas where Gods Word gives Christians liberty. Voluntarily seeking such counsel may be prudent; however, establishing an expectation or unspoken requirement that this occur is not appropriate, particularly when there is a clear expectation that all counsel be followed with uncritical acceptance, as if it were Gods own Word. + + All leaders must be accountable if a church is to be protected from serious error; this can only occur when input is sought, questions are welcomed, disagreement is not perceived as threatening, and an environment promoting healthy discussion is fostered. Though it may exist at some level, my experience suggests that most leaders and other church members feel intimidated and very reticent to question or differ with Pastor Mathew. When people are silenced by fearafraid of castigation, humiliation, or even shunningthe church is harmed. Unbridled authority vested in a leader endangers the church by nullifying the checks and balances critical for maintaining the integrity and doctrinal purity of any organization of fallible men. + + Being very troubled by these issues, I prayed earnestly, sought the Scriptures for understanding, and conducted research. Subsequently, I have become convinced that there is an approach to dealing with Gods people at GVCC that is not only unbiblical, but that can be legitimately characterized in some instances as aberrant and abusive. Moreover, I became increasingly uncomfortable when I discovered numerous articles (sample enclosed) from a variety of evangelical writers that consistently describe an errant pattern of church behavior that is disturbingly similar to GVCC. + + I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations that may impair my objectivity. However, I pray my concerns will not be summarily dismissed but, instead, be evaluated in light of Scripture and with prayer. Rather than portraying this letter as evidence of my familys pride, arrogance, and refusal to submit to the Kingdom of God, please consider that God may be saying something to promote the greater interests of the Gospel through GVCC. My family and I care deeply about GVCC and, for 16 years, have invested our lives and our resources that the church might prosper. Few things have been as difficult as wrestling with this matter; my decision is costly. Nevertheless, to remain silent and passive about these concerns would constitute a dereliction of my duty to protect and ensure the spiritual welfare of my family and would be neglecting my duty before God. + + Thank you for the many years of ministry rendered to my family. We have benefited greatly from the rich teaching and the fellowship with other committed Christians who are serious about walking with Christ. Our covenant with GVCC was predicated upon our and the churchs continuing faithfulness to Scripture. The membership document states that we would be disfellowshipped if we . . . refuse to repent of any sins but continue in them in spite of the repeated exhortations and warnings by the council of elders. We have kept our covenantal commitments; we have not been unrepentant when confronted about sin. We have sought Gods forgiveness; we have struggled in prayer, fasting, and study; we will continue to strive to overcome sin. Sadly, however, I believe the church leadership has broken its covenant with us, as described in this letter. Our departure, therefore, must not be construed as a rejection of the wonderful and godly people who comprise GVCC but, rather, as an expression of the seriousness of my concerns that compel me, along with my family, to find a fellowship of believers where the leadership practices a biblical approach to shepherding the sheep. + + Your Brother in Christ, + + Dale A. Sorbello'' + + ----------

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

BrentLaabs — 2005-12-31 02:29:32

Revert to version dated 2005-12-27 21:17:08.

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	+ * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] + + * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] +

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TheoPaaske — 2005-12-31 00:29:22

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- * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] - - * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] -

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AlexanderWoo — 2005-12-27 21:17:08

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- - ''Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. - '''Ephesians 5:11''' '' -

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CliftonBurton — 2005-12-22 18:08:22

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- * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of wierd abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occassions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["BobSmorelights"]	+ * This problem has been going on for years, and there are endless testimonies of wierd abuse, but the intimidation is so great that people, if they leave, just want to forget about that place, rather than deal with the problems of the church. Even the University appears afraid to intervene, even though they have been informed on several occassions that Grace Alive (the church's campus organization) has been in violation of campus policy. (Student organizations are supposed to be organized and run by students, but Grace Alive is governed directly by the church leaders.) Example: The president of Grace Alive is not elected by the students, but by the church leaders. Perhaps if enough people complained, the University might take some action. -- ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

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CliftonBurton — 2005-12-22 18:03:45

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- ''The Christian knows that there are radically sound possibilities in every man, and he believes that love and grace always have the power to bring out those possibilities in the most unexpected moments. Therefore if he has hopes that God will grant peace to the world it is because he also trusts that man, God's creature, is not basically evil: that there is in man a potentiality for peace and order which can be realized provided the right conditions are there. The Christian will do his part in creating these conditions by preferring love and trust to hate and suspiciousness. -'''Thomas Merton''' ''	+ ''The Christian knows that there are radically sound possibilities in every man, and he believes that love and grace always have the power to bring out those possibilities in the most unexpected moments. Therefore if he has hopes that God will grant peace to the world it is because he also trusts that man, God's creature, is not basically evil: that there is in man a potentiality for peace and order which can be realized provided the right conditions are there. The Christian will do his part in creating these conditions by preferring love and trust to hate and suspiciousness. - '''Thomas Merton''' '' + + ''Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. - '''Ephesians 5:11''' '' +
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- * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. ["CliftonBurton"]	+ * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]
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	+ *Erica, If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. - ["CliftonBurton" Clifton Burton]

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EdwinSaada — 2005-12-09 12:00:02

it was a response to the allegations anyway.

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- = Responses by those currently affiliated with CVCC = - This is an email that I, as an elder of GVCC, sent to the Davis Wiki administrators on December 1. Since they have not responded to me in any way, I am posting the email here for others to see: --["RichardSpencer"] - - To Whom It May Concern: - - My name is Richard Spencer and I am a Professor of Electrical Engineering - at UC Davis and have lived in Davis for 19 years. I would like to - congratulate you on having a great website; it has a lot of very useful - and interesting information on it. - - Unfortunately, as I discovered a couple of days ago, it also has some - information on it that is completely out of character for a wiki site, and - I think violates any reasonable and responsible rules of civility and - propriety. I am referring to the information posted under pseudonyms on - the pages labeled aberrations and experiences that are linked from the - Grace Valley Christian Center page. As an elder of GVCC and an average - citizen of Davis, I am deeply offended by these flames and hope that you - will agree it would be in the best interests of all who use this site to - simply remove (and permanently ban) any postings of this nature. - - As I'm sure you are aware, I can easily get a large number of different - email accounts that do not properly identify who I am. So, as a - hypothetical example, if I had some personal axe to grind with a local - business establishment, I could post a number of different false or - misleading negative comments about the business and make it appear that - they came from different sources. It would be impossible for the business - to reasonably respond to such an attack. The volume and nature of the - comments could easily cause other people to then chime in with statements - like "Gee, this really does sound like a serious problem that someone - should look into." Such comments might have an impact on that business and - would certainly violate the spirit and intent of wiki pages. - - Your own ethics page says "We would all hate to see the wiki turn into a - great place to post porn and flame your professors, but this isn't likely - to happen as long as we are all respectful and cooperative. - Confrontational statements and material is typically ignored or removed." - I hope that you will abide by this and remove the offending material; it - is most definitely confrontational, as well as simply being laughably - inaccurate. I'm sure that you have all known of people who simply lie, or - grossly distort the facts when it suits their purpose. I am asking you to - consider how in the world GVCC (or any person or organization so targeted) - is supposed to respond to the ridiculous things that are being written (my - pastor must approve a car I purchase? Do you really believe that? Do you - honestly think that 300 to 400 reasonable adults in Davis - many of them - doctors, lawyers, professors and the like - would truly put up with such - nonsense?). There obviously isn't any way to respond to such false - allegations in a forum like wiki, it is simply not the right place. For me - to say anything about any individual posting or allegation would require - me to divulge confidential information or say something negative about an - individual (which you rightly prohibit). And yet, these postings do target - individuals (Pastor Matthew is named in one of them); they specifically - speak about the elders or leadership of GVCC, which is an easily - identifiable group of specific individuals, and includes me! - - Your front page says "This project is an interconnected community effort - to explore, discuss and compile anything and everything about Davis - - especially the little, enjoyable things." That is a great statement and - one that I hope you really desire to abide by. The false allegations being - made about my church by "ChristianDemetrius," "JoyfulPilgrim," "Brett - Feld," and "BobSmorelights," whom I suspect strongly are one and the same - person, or possibly two people, are simply not the kind of material that - is of interest to reasonable people (unless, perhaps, they are in the line - at a grocery store at the time). - - Mark Twain once wrote that a lie makes it half way around the world before - the truth gets its shoes on, and this statement is certainly true. I hope - that you will not help this lie by giving it an easy electronic forum. - These false allegations really represent a threat to the Davis wiki site - as well, if this kind of material is allowed, the site could easily - degenerate into a place where people post all kinds of negative - information about people, businesses, or institutions in Davis. I'm sure - that is not what you want to see. - - I would be most happy to meet with any of you who are interested, perhaps - we could have lunch together on campus? I'm sure that if you met me, - and/or other leaders from the church, you would be far more incredulous - about the ridiculous allegations being made. - - So, in the spirit of the UC Davis principles of community, and of common - decency and propriety, I respectfully request that you remove these - ridiculous, untruthful, confrontational, and negative postings from your - website. - - Respectfully yours, - - Richard Spencer

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

EdwinSaada — 2005-12-09 11:58:59

email shouldnt be on two diff pages, will lead to unorganized responses.

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DomenicSantangelo — 2005-12-09 11:29:05

Reformat, +toc

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- I also request anyone reading this page to first read the email that I, as an elder of GVCC, sent to the Davis Wiki administrators on December 1. Since they have not responded to me in any way, I am posting the email here for others to see: --["RichardSpencer"]	+ = Positive Stories and Responses to Them = + + For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["EricaChaffin"] + + * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. ["CliftonBurton"] + + Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I cant understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I dont sit here transformed by fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning. Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"] + + + I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Masters degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCCs mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is without hope and without God. Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"] + + It appears that you (Greg Perry and Erica Chaffin) became Christians at GVCC. If so, the only model of church leadership you know is GVCC's. I don't question your sincerity or your salvation, but to ignore and/or discount other Christians' concerns with the unbibical practices occurring at GVCC is exactly why they continue. These practices "bring the way of truth into disrepute" (2Pet. 2:2); they are not only recognized as unbiblical by the other evangelical churches in Davis, but they are bringing reproach to the name of Christ among the unbelievers. Let the Gospel be the offense and don't cover sin with a theological cloak.--["ChristianDemetrius"] + + Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + + + = Negative Stories and Responses to Them = + + ''There are people who consider Grace Valley to be a ["cults" cult]. Please keep in mind that the following opinions are both valid (i.e., honestly held) and not universal:'' + + For a detailed description of the aberrations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations]. + + CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehoveh Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"] + + * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + * Hey, I used to go to Grace Valley and saw some pretty weird stuff. I saw people get humiliated and treated really badly. I also know from personal experience that once you're a member and decide to leave you will get shunned by pretty much all the people. I think JoyfulPilgrims' description is pretty accurate.--- ChristianDemetrius + + * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] + + * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] + + I, JoyfulPilgrim, would like to say that the "CAUTION!" description below is a result of my own "testimony" - my eyewitness account. [Remainder of comment was deleted by JoyfulPilgrim.] + + I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for getting out of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld + * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'') + + + GVCC borders on being a cult, but actually is more accurately defined as a "spiritually abusive" church. It fits the classic definition of one. There are numerous websites available about this type of church. + + Having attended GVCC for a number of years, I can also attest to what goes on there. Joyful Pilgrim describes it perfectly. LightHouse + + I first started going to GVCC and Grace Alive my freshman year '00 at UCD. After reading the statement of faith and meeting some of the members I was drawn in by the love that was shown. With a multitude of experiences and questions later, I decided to leave GVCC. This decision was made after displays of authoritarianism, group-think and shunning for unbiblical purposes was displayed. Although these people had been like family to me, I could not support the unbiblical practices being displayed. I personally witnessed on more than one account youth and adults being publicly ridiculed during a church service, and others being reprimanded for not reading the church's specific bible reading plan. After sending a vague email saying that I would no longer be attending GVCC I was shunned (in a lighter sense of the word). I received emails and letters asking that I not have contact with certain people because I was an ungodly influence. GVCC members and their children are steered away from "the shunned" in public places like the grocery store and the Farmer's Market, not to mention UCD classes. GVCC is not building up the body of Christ, it is tearing it apart. For this very reason after having gone to GVCC for 1 1/2 years I can say with FULL confidence that I would not recommend my enemy, let alone my friend to attend there. God is so much bigger than what is displayed as Christian love there. The Davis community needs to take action, GVCC's effect is much larger than my story. ~MichelleBasich + + * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churchs. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle] + + = Responses by those currently affiliated with CVCC = + This is an email that I, as an elder of GVCC, sent to the Davis Wiki administrators on December 1. Since they have not responded to me in any way, I am posting the email here for others to see: --["RichardSpencer"]
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- - - = Positive Stories and Responses to Them = - - For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["EricaChaffin"] - - * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. ["CliftonBurton"] - - Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I cant understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I dont sit here transformed by fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning. Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"] - - - I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Masters degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCCs mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is without hope and without God. Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"] - - It appears that you (Greg Perry and Erica Chaffin) became Christians at GVCC. If so, the only model of church leadership you know is GVCC's. I don't question your sincerity or your salvation, but to ignore and/or discount other Christians' concerns with the unbibical practices occurring at GVCC is exactly why they continue. These practices "bring the way of truth into disrepute" (2Pet. 2:2); they are not only recognized as unbiblical by the other evangelical churches in Davis, but they are bringing reproach to the name of Christ among the unbelievers. Let the Gospel be the offense and don't cover sin with a theological cloak.--["ChristianDemetrius"] - - Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - - - =Negative Stories and Responses to Them= - - ''There are people who consider Grace Valley to be a ["cults" cult]. Please keep in mind that the following opinions are both valid (i.e., honestly held) and not universal:'' - - For a detailed description of the aberrations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations]. - - CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehoveh Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"] - - * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - * Hey, I used to go to Grace Valley and saw some pretty weird stuff. I saw people get humiliated and treated really badly. I also know from personal experience that once you're a member and decide to leave you will get shunned by pretty much all the people. I think JoyfulPilgrims' description is pretty accurate.--- ChristianDemetrius - - * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] - - * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] - - I, JoyfulPilgrim, would like to say that the "CAUTION!" description below is a result of my own "testimony" - my eyewitness account. [Remainder of comment was deleted by JoyfulPilgrim.] - - I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for getting out of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld - * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'') - - - GVCC borders on being a cult, but actually is more accurately defined as a "spiritually abusive" church. It fits the classic definition of one. There are numerous websites available about this type of church. - - Having attended GVCC for a number of years, I can also attest to what goes on there. Joyful Pilgrim describes it perfectly. LightHouse - - I first started going to GVCC and Grace Alive my freshman year '00 at UCD. After reading the statement of faith and meeting some of the members I was drawn in by the love that was shown. With a multitude of experiences and questions later, I decided to leave GVCC. This decision was made after displays of authoritarianism, group-think and shunning for unbiblical purposes was displayed. Although these people had been like family to me, I could not support the unbiblical practices being displayed. I personally witnessed on more than one account youth and adults being publicly ridiculed during a church service, and others being reprimanded for not reading the church's specific bible reading plan. After sending a vague email saying that I would no longer be attending GVCC I was shunned (in a lighter sense of the word). I received emails and letters asking that I not have contact with certain people because I was an ungodly influence. GVCC members and their children are steered away from "the shunned" in public places like the grocery store and the Farmer's Market, not to mention UCD classes. GVCC is not building up the body of Christ, it is tearing it apart. For this very reason after having gone to GVCC for 1 1/2 years I can say with FULL confidence that I would not recommend my enemy, let alone my friend to attend there. God is so much bigger than what is displayed as Christian love there. The Davis community needs to take action, GVCC's effect is much larger than my story. ~MichelleBasich - - * ''I am disheartened to hear of such negative things happening in a church that claims to follow the ways of Christ. The real way of Christ was love and acceptance. I suggest ["Crossings Alternative Worship" Crossings] as an alternative to GVCC or similar such funamentalist-type churchs. Crossings believes everyone can experience God's love and grace no matter their background, lifestyle, or orientation.'' --["JanelleAlvstadMattson" Janelle] - - - =Protests=	+ = Protests =

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

RichardSpencer — 2005-12-09 11:18:11

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	+ + I also request anyone reading this page to first read the email that I, as an elder of GVCC, sent to the Davis Wiki administrators on December 1. Since they have not responded to me in any way, I am posting the email here for others to see: --["RichardSpencer"] + + To Whom It May Concern: + + My name is Richard Spencer and I am a Professor of Electrical Engineering + at UC Davis and have lived in Davis for 19 years. I would like to + congratulate you on having a great website; it has a lot of very useful + and interesting information on it. + + Unfortunately, as I discovered a couple of days ago, it also has some + information on it that is completely out of character for a wiki site, and + I think violates any reasonable and responsible rules of civility and + propriety. I am referring to the information posted under pseudonyms on + the pages labeled aberrations and experiences that are linked from the + Grace Valley Christian Center page. As an elder of GVCC and an average + citizen of Davis, I am deeply offended by these flames and hope that you + will agree it would be in the best interests of all who use this site to + simply remove (and permanently ban) any postings of this nature. + + As I'm sure you are aware, I can easily get a large number of different + email accounts that do not properly identify who I am. So, as a + hypothetical example, if I had some personal axe to grind with a local + business establishment, I could post a number of different false or + misleading negative comments about the business and make it appear that + they came from different sources. It would be impossible for the business + to reasonably respond to such an attack. The volume and nature of the + comments could easily cause other people to then chime in with statements + like "Gee, this really does sound like a serious problem that someone + should look into." Such comments might have an impact on that business and + would certainly violate the spirit and intent of wiki pages. + + Your own ethics page says "We would all hate to see the wiki turn into a + great place to post porn and flame your professors, but this isn't likely + to happen as long as we are all respectful and cooperative. + Confrontational statements and material is typically ignored or removed." + I hope that you will abide by this and remove the offending material; it + is most definitely confrontational, as well as simply being laughably + inaccurate. I'm sure that you have all known of people who simply lie, or + grossly distort the facts when it suits their purpose. I am asking you to + consider how in the world GVCC (or any person or organization so targeted) + is supposed to respond to the ridiculous things that are being written (my + pastor must approve a car I purchase? Do you really believe that? Do you + honestly think that 300 to 400 reasonable adults in Davis - many of them + doctors, lawyers, professors and the like - would truly put up with such + nonsense?). There obviously isn't any way to respond to such false + allegations in a forum like wiki, it is simply not the right place. For me + to say anything about any individual posting or allegation would require + me to divulge confidential information or say something negative about an + individual (which you rightly prohibit). And yet, these postings do target + individuals (Pastor Matthew is named in one of them); they specifically + speak about the elders or leadership of GVCC, which is an easily + identifiable group of specific individuals, and includes me! + + Your front page says "This project is an interconnected community effort + to explore, discuss and compile anything and everything about Davis - + especially the little, enjoyable things." That is a great statement and + one that I hope you really desire to abide by. The false allegations being + made about my church by "ChristianDemetrius," "JoyfulPilgrim," "Brett + Feld," and "BobSmorelights," whom I suspect strongly are one and the same + person, or possibly two people, are simply not the kind of material that + is of interest to reasonable people (unless, perhaps, they are in the line + at a grocery store at the time). + + Mark Twain once wrote that a lie makes it half way around the world before + the truth gets its shoes on, and this statement is certainly true. I hope + that you will not help this lie by giving it an easy electronic forum. + These false allegations really represent a threat to the Davis wiki site + as well, if this kind of material is allowed, the site could easily + degenerate into a place where people post all kinds of negative + information about people, businesses, or institutions in Davis. I'm sure + that is not what you want to see. + + I would be most happy to meet with any of you who are interested, perhaps + we could have lunch together on campus? I'm sure that if you met me, + and/or other leaders from the church, you would be far more incredulous + about the ridiculous allegations being made. + + So, in the spirit of the UC Davis principles of community, and of common + decency and propriety, I respectfully request that you remove these + ridiculous, untruthful, confrontational, and negative postings from your + website. + + Respectfully yours, + + Richard Spencer + +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

GregPerry — 2005-12-05 15:28:16

It seems appropriate to emphasize that these "aberrations" are simply alleged.

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- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.
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- For a detailed description of the aberrations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].	+ For a detailed description of the aberrations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Alleged Aberrations].

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KenjiYamada — 2005-12-02 19:08:18

del my comment per AlexanderWoo's request

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- - Evangelical and "sola scriptura" type Christians tend not to be very big fans of Thomas Merton, if they know much about him at all. Just to warn you. - ["KenjiYamada"]

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KenjiYamada — 2005-12-02 18:43:32

comment about merton

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	+ + Evangelical and "sola scriptura" type Christians tend not to be very big fans of Thomas Merton, if they know much about him at all. Just to warn you. - ["KenjiYamada"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

AlexanderWoo — 2005-12-02 18:17:00

clerking (Quaker-speak for active (but neutral) moderating)

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	+ + = A Reading for Future Contributors = + + I humbly request that all future contributors to this page read the following quote and reflect on it for at least 5 minutes before contributions. --["AlexanderWoo"] + + ''The Christian knows that there are radically sound possibilities in every man, and he believes that love and grace always have the power to bring out those possibilities in the most unexpected moments. Therefore if he has hopes that God will grant peace to the world it is because he also trusts that man, God's creature, is not basically evil: that there is in man a potentiality for peace and order which can be realized provided the right conditions are there. The Christian will do his part in creating these conditions by preferring love and trust to hate and suspiciousness. -'''Thomas Merton''' ''

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

TheoPaaske — 2005-12-02 07:44:32

all related comments should go on the talk page, or none.

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- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. - - ''I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. ["DomenicSantangelo"]'' (See ["../Talk" Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk]) - - * As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. ["TheoPaaske"]	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. For discussion on how the ["../Aberrations" Aberrations] and Experiences pages should be re-integrated, see the ["../Talk" Talk] page.

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TheoPaaske — 2005-12-02 07:36:28

comment is pertinent, despite what monikers people have

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	+ + * As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. ["TheoPaaske"]

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EricaChaffin — 2005-12-02 00:18:13

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	+ *Cliff, I understand that you are allowed the ''opinion'' you may hold about the Pastor of Grace Valley, but what I cant understand is how you can think that criticism of my Pastor, elders, and my church would NOT be a personal attack on me. The reason '''I am''' this woman writing this right now, is because 4 years ago, I walked into a church and heard the word of God proclaimed by this very Pastor, and through his faithful preaching of the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit I sit here transformed. I dont sit here transformed by fear, intimidation, control, and manipulation from my Pastor or elders, as you ''so claim'' happens at this church. The fear that I have is the same fear Moses speaks of from Exodus 20:20, that the '''fear of God''' will be with you to keep you from sinning. Unfortunately, there seems to be a difference in who we fear. I '''do not''' fear these men, because it is not by the men of this church that I am ultimately judged, but by the God of the bible they preach about, and the standand in which '''He''' stands for. - ["EricaChaffin"]

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BrentLaabs — 2005-12-01 21:46:08

update

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	+ * I am in the process of contacting the University Administration about what has been said here. However, since most of the stories are given on anonymous accounts and/or new accounts where we don't know you, people will have to meet in person with University officials. Hopefully this will be on an anonymous basis, so there is no fear of reprisal. All I can do is get the ball rolling, because I have no personal knowledge about Grace Alive other than their yellow posters. Details to come. --["BrentLaabs"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:25:36

linked

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- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear.	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Due to a large number of strongly worded, serious, yet quasi-anonymous comments, we should keep Experiences here and slowly integrate relevant discussion, ultimately deleting this page. The ultimate goal is to integrate these comments, so try to make your additions pointed, concise and clear. + + ''I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. ["DomenicSantangelo"]'' (See ["../Talk" Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk])

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:23:32

meta. moving to '/talk' in minute

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- - * I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - * As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. --["TheoPaaske"] - - * Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["CliftonBurton"] - - * So? --["DomenicSantangelo" Dom] - - * If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["BobSmorelights"] - - * A lawsuit though? In that situation, I'd be more afraid if they said they were going to "intervene" and "bring me back to God" than if they gave the empty threat of a lawsuit. --dom

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DomenicSantangelo — 2005-12-01 19:00:38

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	+ + * A lawsuit though? In that situation, I'd be more afraid if they said they were going to "intervene" and "bring me back to God" than if they gave the empty threat of a lawsuit. --dom

Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

KaiTing — 2005-12-01 16:42:46

spelling

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- For a detailed description of the aberations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].	+ For a detailed description of the aberrations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].

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KaiTing — 2005-12-01 16:40:34

aberrations link

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- For a detailed description of the aberations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].	+ For a detailed description of the aberations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].

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BobSmorelights — 2005-12-01 16:21:15

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- For a detailed description of the aberations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see "Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].	+ For a detailed description of the aberations at Grace Valley Christian Center, see ["Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations" Aberrations].