Recent Changes for "Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk" - Davis Wiki

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JasonAller — 2009-10-21 20:02:37

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 175:	Line 175:
- ''2009-05-11 09:14:55'' [[nbsp]] I'm not sure, but I don't feel like some of these things above should be their own pages...["The Sorbello's Resignation Letter from GVCC"], ["Regarding Qualifications For Ministry"], ["Bible Quotes about GVCC"] is opinion based as well, ["A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused"]. These pages personally seem a bit farstretched. I understand some people feel a very deep connection and concern over GVCC, but I don't think it warrants comments about the place being turned into standalone pages. I think ["Users/DavidRobinson"] posted something similar elsewhere. Perhaps if there was an anti-GVCC wiki :P --["Users/EdWins"]	+ ''2009-05-11 09:14:55'' [[nbsp]] I'm not sure, but I don't feel like some of these things above should be their own pages...["The Sorbello's Resignation Letter from GVCC"], ["Regarding Qualifications For Ministry"], ["Bible Quotes about GVCC"] is opinion based as well, {{{["A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused"]}}}. These pages personally seem a bit farstretched. I understand some people feel a very deep connection and concern over GVCC, but I don't think it warrants comments about the place being turned into standalone pages. I think ["Users/DavidRobinson"] posted something similar elsewhere. Perhaps if there was an anti-GVCC wiki :P --["Users/EdWins"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

anonymous18 — 2009-09-16 12:58:31

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 182:	Line 182:
	+ ------ + ''2009-09-16 13:58:31'' [[nbsp]] I would like to comment that I have visited GraceValley in the past. There are few churches in the area that preach the true word of God like Grace Valley does. I have been blessed beyond words by its rich biblicaly based teaching from a man of God who does not fear the words of men. As for the accusations of a harsh and oppresive leadership, those who trash talk this church have been asked to leave because they refused to submit to biblical authority. No "shunning" would have taken place if these people had not been so spiteful and cruel in their speakings of the church after they left. Many have come and gone for various reasons, and are looked kindly upon with no hostilities. It is important to note that the hatespeach is ironically one sided. Christians pray for eachother, they do not try to poison peoples minds and tarnish the churchs reputation. I would ask those who speak so venemently against this church to question their motives and evaluate their standing before the one true God who will hold each of us accoutable for every word we speak. --["Users/anonymous18"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

ronpina — 2009-06-16 12:38:46

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 45:	Line 45:
- This quotation describes the Pastor of GVCC in painful detail. The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]	+ This quotation describes the Pastor of GVCC in painful detail. The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 13:42:26

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 181:	Line 181:
- * I see what you're saying, and taking a step back, I do agree with you in theory (though I still think the ASUCD court case is lame and doesn't fit :P). I was going to explain what I was arguing for, but it's become a moot point. I was complaining about the links in my above post that are now defunct. I did not like the fact that posts made on this page were taken, and turned into individual entries. In my opinion, they should have been tossed onto the "Experiences" page as that's what they were/are, kind of, and not individually duplicated into independent entries. That is what I oppose(d), and the creator of those pages kindly compromised (thank you). -["users/edwins" ES]	+ * I see what you're saying, and taking a step back, I do agree with you in theory (though I still think the ASUCD court case is lame and doesn't fit :P). I was going to explain what I was arguing for, but it's become a moot point. I was complaining about the links in my above post that are now defunct. I did not like the fact that posts made on this page were taken, and duplicated into individual entries. In my opinion, they should have been tossed onto the "Experiences" page as that's what they were/are, kind of, and not individually duplicated into independent entries. That is what I oppose(d), and the creator of those pages kindly compromised (thank you). -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 13:28:50

reply.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 181:	Line 181:
	+ * I see what you're saying, and taking a step back, I do agree with you in theory (though I still think the ASUCD court case is lame and doesn't fit :P). I was going to explain what I was arguing for, but it's become a moot point. I was complaining about the links in my above post that are now defunct. I did not like the fact that posts made on this page were taken, and turned into individual entries. In my opinion, they should have been tossed onto the "Experiences" page as that's what they were/are, kind of, and not individually duplicated into independent entries. That is what I oppose(d), and the creator of those pages kindly compromised (thank you). -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JabberWokky — 2009-05-11 11:49:45

Simple, direct rule of thumb, no edge cases.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 180:	Line 180:
	+ * I just simply disagree. A long essay written by a Davis resident about a Davis topic makes sense to be on a distinct entry. Doesn't matter what it is, no need to get exceptions or examples going. It's a simple general rule of thumb. If it's a short little blurb, I agree: toss it on the same entry as the subject it ties to. If it gets long enough though, cross link it through and make a new entry. Seems simple to me. If there's a long play by play description of a hockey game (or ten games), especially if the focus is on local players, go for it... that's a great thing to have on the wiki (kind of like the Trivia Night entries). It captures a part of Davis, and over time will capture a particular era of Davis. I'm not sure what you're "saving" by advocating their removal. --jw

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 11:34:14

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 179:	Line 179:
- * That's a poor analogy and you know it JW, come on. I get you're trying to just make a point, but a page about the Law Court being a part of ASUCD makes as much sense as a page about allegations against the GVCC page, which makes as much sense as a page about Hockey being one of the sports in the town. You can get an idea of who's who, what's what, etc. What I disagree with is many pages on things that stretch relevancy. (Or comments stretched into entries to emphasize them). And we've had pages arguing what qualifies notable vs not, that's not what I want to jump into here. I get your point, but really, let's keep it to the context and not stretch it into a big wiki philosophical discussion. In this specific context, I don't think ["ASUCD Court Case 22" every] court case belongs on it's own wiki page. I don't think [http://daviswiki.org/Bible_Quotes_about_GVCC?action=recall&version=1 every] allegation/letter about GVCC page needs a wiki page. Similarly, I think if someone was making a page for 10 different hockey games, that wouldn't really belong on separate pages either. Before a straw man is brought up, I also believe that there certainly are and will be exceptions to that. It's not black or white, clearly. But that leads back to the wiki philosophy talks that pop up every now and then. Nonetheless, this sort of stuff has come up before. I recall a certain aggie writer used to have his aggie articles as wiki pages, and a lot of people were in disapproval of the [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WalledGarden walled garden] and wanted them removed, linked to from subpages, etc. The examples I brought up are in my opinion are of the same sorts of actions. It's not exactly analogous to the 'parent' topic pages. (And the talk about ASUCD wikipages being moved off specifically has come up dozens of times, typically around elections when people get tired of the edit wars. Hasn't happened in a bit, thankfully) -["users/edwins" ES]	+ * That's a poor analogy and you know it JW, come on. I get you're trying to just make a point, but a page about the Law Court being a part of ASUCD makes as much sense as a page about allegations against the GVCC page, which makes as much sense as a page about Hockey being one of the sports in the town. You can get an idea of who's who, what's what, etc. What I disagree with is many pages on things that stretch relevancy, such as comments stretched into entries to emphasize them. And we've had pages arguing what qualifies notable vs not, that's not what I want to jump into here. I get your point, but really, let's keep it to the context and not stretch it into a big wiki philosophical discussion. In this specific context, I don't think ["ASUCD Court Case 22" every] court case belongs on it's own wiki page. I don't think [http://daviswiki.org/Bible_Quotes_about_GVCC?action=recall&version=1 every] allegation/letter about GVCC page needs a wiki page. Similarly, I think if someone was making a page for 10 different hockey games, that wouldn't really belong on separate pages either. Before a straw man is brought up, I also believe that there certainly are and will be exceptions to that. It's not black or white, clearly. But that leads back to the wiki philosophy talks that pop up every now and then. Nonetheless, this sort of stuff has come up before. I recall a certain aggie writer used to have his aggie articles as wiki pages, and a lot of people were in disapproval of the [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WalledGarden walled garden] and wanted them removed, linked to from subpages, etc. The examples I brought up are in my opinion are of the same sorts of actions. It's not exactly analogous to the 'parent' topic pages. (And the talk about ASUCD wikipages being moved off specifically has come up dozens of times, typically around elections when people get tired of the edit wars. Hasn't happened in a bit, thankfully) -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 11:32:23

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 179:	Line 179:
- * That's a poor analogy and you know it JW, come on. I get you're trying to just make a point, but a page about the Law Court being a part of ASUCD makes as much sense as a page about allegations against the GVCC page, which makes as much sense as a page about Hockey being one of the sports in the town. You can get an idea of who's who, what's what, etc. What I disagree with is many pages on things that stretch relevancy. And we've had pages arguing what qualifies notable vs not, that's not what I want to jump into here. I get your point, but really, let's keep it to the context and not stretch it into a big wiki philosophical discussion. In this specific context, I don't think every court case belongs on it's own wiki page. I don't think every allegation/letter about GVCC page needs a wiki page. Similarly, I think if someone was making a specific page for 10 different hockey games, that wouldn't really belong on separate pages either. Many people didn't feel that a certain aggie writer deserved a page for each article he wrote. Before a straw man is brought up, I also believe that there certainly are and will be exceptions to that. That leads back to the wiki philosophy talks that pop up every now and then. Nonetheless, this sort of stuff has come up before. I recall a certain aggie writer used to have his aggie articles as wiki pages, and a lot of people were in dissapproval of the [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WalledGarden walled garden]. The examples I brought up are in my opinion are of the same sort. (And the talk about ASUCD wikipages specifically has come up dozens of times, typically around elections). -["users/edwins" ES]	+ * That's a poor analogy and you know it JW, come on. I get you're trying to just make a point, but a page about the Law Court being a part of ASUCD makes as much sense as a page about allegations against the GVCC page, which makes as much sense as a page about Hockey being one of the sports in the town. You can get an idea of who's who, what's what, etc. What I disagree with is many pages on things that stretch relevancy. (Or comments stretched into entries to emphasize them). And we've had pages arguing what qualifies notable vs not, that's not what I want to jump into here. I get your point, but really, let's keep it to the context and not stretch it into a big wiki philosophical discussion. In this specific context, I don't think ["ASUCD Court Case 22" every] court case belongs on it's own wiki page. I don't think [http://daviswiki.org/Bible_Quotes_about_GVCC?action=recall&version=1 every] allegation/letter about GVCC page needs a wiki page. Similarly, I think if someone was making a page for 10 different hockey games, that wouldn't really belong on separate pages either. Before a straw man is brought up, I also believe that there certainly are and will be exceptions to that. It's not black or white, clearly. But that leads back to the wiki philosophy talks that pop up every now and then. Nonetheless, this sort of stuff has come up before. I recall a certain aggie writer used to have his aggie articles as wiki pages, and a lot of people were in disapproval of the [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WalledGarden walled garden] and wanted them removed, linked to from subpages, etc. The examples I brought up are in my opinion are of the same sorts of actions. It's not exactly analogous to the 'parent' topic pages. (And the talk about ASUCD wikipages being moved off specifically has come up dozens of times, typically around elections when people get tired of the edit wars. Hasn't happened in a bit, thankfully) -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 11:27:22

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 179:	Line 179:
	+ * That's a poor analogy and you know it JW, come on. I get you're trying to just make a point, but a page about the Law Court being a part of ASUCD makes as much sense as a page about allegations against the GVCC page, which makes as much sense as a page about Hockey being one of the sports in the town. You can get an idea of who's who, what's what, etc. What I disagree with is many pages on things that stretch relevancy. And we've had pages arguing what qualifies notable vs not, that's not what I want to jump into here. I get your point, but really, let's keep it to the context and not stretch it into a big wiki philosophical discussion. In this specific context, I don't think every court case belongs on it's own wiki page. I don't think every allegation/letter about GVCC page needs a wiki page. Similarly, I think if someone was making a specific page for 10 different hockey games, that wouldn't really belong on separate pages either. Many people didn't feel that a certain aggie writer deserved a page for each article he wrote. Before a straw man is brought up, I also believe that there certainly are and will be exceptions to that. That leads back to the wiki philosophy talks that pop up every now and then. Nonetheless, this sort of stuff has come up before. I recall a certain aggie writer used to have his aggie articles as wiki pages, and a lot of people were in dissapproval of the [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WalledGarden walled garden]. The examples I brought up are in my opinion are of the same sort. (And the talk about ASUCD wikipages specifically has come up dozens of times, typically around elections). -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JabberWokky — 2009-05-11 11:06:37

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 178:	Line 178:
	+ * How about the various sports pages? Most people aren't involved in Hockey, for instance. --jw

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 10:17:56

actually....

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 177:	Line 177:
	+ * I agree with that too. The bulk of it is fluff, overactive wiki editors involved within ASUCD for years. I think it all should be condensed as much as possible, rather than sprawling all over the wiki. The "Court Cases" are a great example of stuff that don't need standalone pages, in my opinion. -["users/edwins" ES]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JabberWokky — 2009-05-11 08:43:15

A modest (and non-serious) proposal. (ahem)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 176:	Line 176:
	+ * If we're looking at removing things from the wiki written by Davisites regarding things in Davis but that don't relate to all people in Davis, perhaps we should move all the ASUCD stuff off the wiki first? Certainly there are more top level entries that generate drama, are bitter and have nothing to do with a good chunk of the Davis populace that are related to ASUCD. --["Users/JabberWokky" Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 08:16:06

(quick edit)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 175:	Line 175:
- ''2009-05-11 09:14:55'' [[nbsp]] I'm not sure, but I don't feel like some of these things above should be their own pages...["The Sorbello's Resignation Letter from GVCC"], ["Regarding Qualifications For Ministry"], ["Bible Quotes about GVCC"] is opinion based as well, ["A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused"]. These pages personally seem a bit farstretched. I think ["DavidRobinson"] posted something similar elsewhere. Perhaps if there was an anti-GVCC wiki :P --["Users/EdWins"]	+ ''2009-05-11 09:14:55'' [[nbsp]] I'm not sure, but I don't feel like some of these things above should be their own pages...["The Sorbello's Resignation Letter from GVCC"], ["Regarding Qualifications For Ministry"], ["Bible Quotes about GVCC"] is opinion based as well, ["A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused"]. These pages personally seem a bit farstretched. I understand some people feel a very deep connection and concern over GVCC, but I don't think it warrants comments about the place being turned into standalone pages. I think ["Users/DavidRobinson"] posted something similar elsewhere. Perhaps if there was an anti-GVCC wiki :P --["Users/EdWins"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 08:14:55

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 174:	Line 174:
	+ ------ + ''2009-05-11 09:14:55'' [[nbsp]] I'm not sure, but I don't feel like some of these things above should be their own pages...["The Sorbello's Resignation Letter from GVCC"], ["Regarding Qualifications For Ministry"], ["Bible Quotes about GVCC"] is opinion based as well, ["A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused"]. These pages personally seem a bit farstretched. I think ["DavidRobinson"] posted something similar elsewhere. Perhaps if there was an anti-GVCC wiki :P --["Users/EdWins"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EdWins — 2009-05-11 08:13:26

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 2:	Line 2:
	+ [[comments]]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JasonAller — 2009-01-08 23:12:49

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- ''This is a page for discussion of the content of the original page. This page was created because there was a dispute or argument about the content of the page (["Grace Valley Christian Center"]). Hashing out our differences here will allow for a more productive dialogue and won't clutter the original page.''	+ ''This is a page for ["Talk Pages" discussion] of the content of the original page. This page was created because there was a dispute or argument about the content of the page (["Grace Valley Christian Center"]). Hashing out our differences here will allow for a more productive dialogue and won't clutter the original page.''

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:15:12

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 50:	Line 50:
- 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer!	+ 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep! No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer!
Line 52:	Line 52:
- 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.'	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.'

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:12:21

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 52:	Line 52:
- 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible --- 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' + + Quoted from Ezekiel 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible --- 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:10:19

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 45:	Line 45:
	+ ------ + '''A divine indictment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused''' + + God's Message came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherd-leaders of Israel. Yes, prophesy! Tell those shepherds, 'God, the Master, says: '''Doom''' to you shepherds of Israel, feeding your own mouths! Aren't shepherds supposed to feed sheep? You drink the milk, you make clothes from the wool, you roast the lambs, but you don't feed the sheep. You don't build up the weak ones, don't heal the sick, don't doctor the injured, don't go after the strays, don't look for the lost. You '''bully''' and '''badger''' them. And now they're scattered every which way because there was no shepherd—scattered and easy pickings for wolves and coyotes. Scattered—my sheep!—exposed and vulnerable across mountains and hills. My sheep scattered all over the world, and no one out looking for them!' + + 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer! + + 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible --- 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:07:12

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 47:	Line 47:
- ------ - ''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused'''
Line 50:	Line 48:
- God's Message came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherd-leaders of Israel. Yes, prophesy! Tell those shepherds, 'God, the Master, says: '''Doom''' to you shepherds of Israel, feeding your own mouths! Aren't shepherds supposed to feed sheep? You drink the milk, you make clothes from the wool, you roast the lambs, but you don't feed the sheep. You don't build up the weak ones, don't heal the sick, don't doctor the injured, don't go after the strays, don't look for the lost. You '''bully''' and '''badger''' them. And now they're scattered every which way because there was no shepherd—scattered and easy pickings for wolves and coyotes. Scattered—my sheep!—exposed and vulnerable across mountains and hills. My sheep scattered all over the world, and no one out looking for them!' - - 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer! - - 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ---["Users/CliftonBurton"] - - ------

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:06:07

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 45:	Line 45:
	+ ------ + + ------ + ''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused''' + + God's Message came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherd-leaders of Israel. Yes, prophesy! Tell those shepherds, 'God, the Master, says: '''Doom''' to you shepherds of Israel, feeding your own mouths! Aren't shepherds supposed to feed sheep? You drink the milk, you make clothes from the wool, you roast the lambs, but you don't feed the sheep. You don't build up the weak ones, don't heal the sick, don't doctor the injured, don't go after the strays, don't look for the lost. You '''bully''' and '''badger''' them. And now they're scattered every which way because there was no shepherd—scattered and easy pickings for wolves and coyotes. Scattered—my sheep!—exposed and vulnerable across mountains and hills. My sheep scattered all over the world, and no one out looking for them!' + + 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer! + + 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ---["Users/CliftonBurton"] +
Line 161:	Line 172:
- ------ - ''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused''' - - “God's Message came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherd-leaders of Israel. Yes, prophesy! Tell those shepherds, 'God, the Master, says: '''Doom''' to you shepherds of Israel, feeding your own mouths! Aren't shepherds supposed to feed sheep? You drink the milk, you make clothes from the wool, you roast the lambs, but you don't feed the sheep. You don't build up the weak ones, don't heal the sick, don't doctor the injured, don't go after the strays, don't look for the lost. You '''bully''' and '''badger''' them. And now they're scattered every which way because there was no shepherd—scattered and easy pickings for wolves and coyotes. Scattered—my sheep!—exposed and vulnerable across mountains and hills. My sheep scattered all over the world, and no one out looking for them!' - - 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer! - - 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ---["Users/CliftonBurton"] - - ------

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:04:25

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 162:	Line 162:
- - '''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused'''	+ ''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused'''
Line 169:	Line 168:
- 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible 2008-10-10 11:01:51 ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 10:01:51

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 169:	Line 169:
- 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll '''feed''' them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll '''lead''' them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll '''go after''' the lost, I'll '''collect''' the strays, I'll '''doctor''' the injured, I'll '''build up''' the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 09:59:45

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 162:	Line 162:
	+ + '''A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused''' +
Line 166:	Line 169:
- 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 - - A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 Message Bible ---["Users/CliftonBurton"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-10 09:57:25

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 38:	Line 38:
	+ + ''2008-05-14 02:09:40'' [[nbsp]] + '''Regarding qualifications for ministry I would defer to AW Pink who writes:''' + + ''In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. '' --A.W. Pink, from chapter 11 of ''Practical Christianity'' + + This quotation describes the Pastor of GVCC in painful detail. The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"] + ------ +
Line 153:	Line 162:
- ''2008-05-14 02:09:40'' [[nbsp]] - '''Regarding qualifications for ministry I would defer to AW Pink who writes:'''	+ “God's Message came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherd-leaders of Israel. Yes, prophesy! Tell those shepherds, 'God, the Master, says: '''Doom''' to you shepherds of Israel, feeding your own mouths! Aren't shepherds supposed to feed sheep? You drink the milk, you make clothes from the wool, you roast the lambs, but you don't feed the sheep. You don't build up the weak ones, don't heal the sick, don't doctor the injured, don't go after the strays, don't look for the lost. You '''bully''' and '''badger''' them. And now they're scattered every which way because there was no shepherd—scattered and easy pickings for wolves and coyotes. Scattered—my sheep!—exposed and vulnerable across mountains and hills. My sheep scattered all over the world, and no one out looking for them!'
Line 156:	Line 164:
- ''In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. '' --A.W. Pink, from chapter 11 of ''Practical Christianity''	+ 'Therefore, shepherds, listen to the Message of God: As sure as I am the living God—because my sheep have been turned into mere prey, into easy meals for wolves because you shepherds ignored them and only fed yourselves, listen to what God has to say: 'Watch out! I'm coming down on the shepherds and '''taking my sheep back'''. They're fired as shepherds of my sheep. No more shepherds who just feed themselves! I'll rescue my sheep from their greed. They're not going to feed off my sheep any longer!
Line 158:	Line 166:
- This quotation describes the Pastor of GVCC in painful detail. The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]	+ 'God, the Master, says: From now on, I '''myself''' am the shepherd. I'm going looking for them. As shepherds go after their flocks when they get scattered, I'm going after my sheep. I'll '''rescue''' them from all the places they've been scattered to in the storms. I'll bring them back from foreign peoples, gather them from foreign countries, and bring them back to their home country. I'll feed them on the mountains of Israel, along the streams, among their own people. I'll lead them into lush pasture so they can roam the mountain pastures of Israel, graze at leisure, feed in the rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. And I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I myself will make sure they get plenty of rest. I'll go after the lost, I'll collect the strays, I'll doctor the injured, I'll build up the weak ones and oversee the strong ones so they're not exploited.' " Ez 34:1-6,11-16 + + A divine indigtment of abusive leadership, and a divine promise of restoration for the abused ---["Users/CliftonBurton"] + + ------

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-10-02 14:42:03

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 39:	Line 39:
- -
Line 117:	Line 115:
-

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JasonAller — 2008-08-17 16:08:12

link fixes

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 3:	Line 3:
- I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"]	+ I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["Users/DomenicSantangelo"]
Line 7:	Line 7:
- Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["CliftonBurton"]	+ Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["Users/CliftonBurton"]
Line 9:	Line 9:
- So? --["DomenicSantangelo" Dom]	+ So? --["Users/DomenicSantangelo" Dom]
Line 11:	Line 11:
- If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["CliftonBurton"]	+ If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["Users/CliftonBurton"]
Line 16:	Line 16:
- It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences" Experiences] section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]	+ It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences" Experiences] section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["Users/DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]
Line 20:	Line 20:
- Neither name yields any results in the UCD directory, so they are not students or staff. (The names at least) Soon as multiple-account users figure out the IP thing, though, they might try editing from computer labs. -["KarlMogel"]	+ Neither name yields any results in the UCD directory, so they are not students or staff. (The names at least) Soon as multiple-account users figure out the IP thing, though, they might try editing from computer labs. -["Users/KarlMogel"]
Line 22:	Line 22:
- Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"] - I propose the deletion of this page seeing as how there is seemingly a duplicate page that is doing the same thing. --["SteveOstrowski"]	+ Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["Users/GregPerry"] + I propose the deletion of this page seeing as how there is seemingly a duplicate page that is doing the same thing. --["Users/SteveOstrowski"]
Line 26:	Line 26:
- ------	+

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

RichLindvall — 2008-05-26 08:09:20

quick edit

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 16:	Line 16:
- It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the ["Grace Valley Christian Center" Experiences] section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]	+ It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the ["Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences" Experiences] section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

RichLindvall — 2008-05-26 08:06:43

+ link

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 16:	Line 16:
- It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]	+ It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the ["Grace Valley Christian Center" Experiences] section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-05-19 11:15:55

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 18:	Line 18:
- Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"] - -Both Users have since been removed. --["CarlosBarahona"] - -----
Line 162:	Line 159:
- ''In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. '' --A.W. Pink	+ ''In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. '' --A.W. Pink, from chapter 11 of ''Practical Christianity''
Line 164:	Line 161:
- The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]	+ This quotation describes the Pastor of GVCC in painful detail. The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-05-19 11:11:30

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 164:	Line 164:
- The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]	+ The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see (cf. the article: ''Davis church gives $5K to DSF'' in the Davis Enterprise on May 09, 2008). Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2008-05-19 09:21:56

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 159:	Line 159:
- ''2008-05-14 02:09:40'' [[nbsp]] Regarding qualifications for ministry I would defer to AW Pink who writes:"In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. A.W. Pink - The Elders at gvcc failed when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander,harsh speech in fits of rage directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he , by God's grace, might be saved.What Arrogance and Pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness the result of returning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. - How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast the his goodness for all to see. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]	+ ''2008-05-14 02:09:40'' [[nbsp]] + '''Regarding qualifications for ministry I would defer to AW Pink who writes:''' + + ''In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. '' --A.W. Pink + + The Elders at GVCC fail when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander, harsh speech in fits of rage, directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he, by God's grace, might be saved. What arrogance and pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness, the result of turning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast his goodness for all to see. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

ronpina — 2008-05-14 01:09:40

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 158:	Line 158:
	+ ------ + ''2008-05-14 02:09:40'' [[nbsp]] Regarding qualifications for ministry I would defer to AW Pink who writes:"In every generation there are those of an officious spirit who aspire to leadership, demanding deference from their fellows. Such men, especially when they are endowed with natural gifts above the average, are the kind who become the founders of new sects and parties, and insist upon unqualified subjection from their followers. Their interpretation of the Scriptures must not be challenged, their dicta are final. They must be owned as “rabbis” and submitted to as “fathers”. Everyone must believe precisely what they teach, and order all details of his life by the rules of conduct which they prescribe, or else be branded as a heretic and denounced as a gratifier of the lusts of the flesh. There have been, and still are, many such self-elevated little popes in Christendom, who deem themselves to be entitled to implicit credence and obedience, whose decisions must be accepted without question. They are nothing but an arrogant usurper, for Christ alone is the Rabbi or Master of Christians; and since all of His disciples are “brethren” they possess equal rights and privileges. No man is to be heeded in spiritual matters any further than he can produce a plain and decisive “thus saith the Lord” as the foundation of his appeal. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (I Peter 4:11). Rather than conform to the rules of the Pharisees, Christ was willing to be regarded as a Sabbath-breaker! Paul’s work was to instruct and persuade, not to lord it over his converts and compel their belief. The elders are divinely forbidden to abuse their position and to assume any absolute authority or rule imperiously over the saints. They are not to act arbitrarily or in a domineering spirit, nor engage in any conversation that is not seasoned with grace, but instead to speak only the truth in love for the edification of the flock allotted to their charge. The Lord will not long tolerate a tyrannical spirit in His pulpit, nor any who are arrogant, rumormongers, or dictators to the consciences of His children, violating their precious spiritual liberties. A.W. Pink + The Elders at gvcc failed when any minister like Mathew Gee is allowed to function using slander,harsh speech in fits of rage directed to the lambs allotted to his care. That man is disqualified from service and in need of repentance administered in kindness and gentleness, that he , by God's grace, might be saved.What Arrogance and Pride prevents true peace and fruitfulness the result of returning from these same manners of ministry so destructive to the souls of many in his care. + How? He is without meaningful connection and authentic oversight from the wider body of Christ. This defines the irrelevance of the Ministry of Mathew Gee. Claiming to see but blinded by arrogance convinced of His own self-righteousness. We pray for his repentance. He gave his $5,000 gift and broadcast the his goodness for all to see. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." --["Users/ronpina"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

LightHouse — 2008-01-16 21:33:23

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 40:	Line 40:
	+ ------ + ''2008-01-16 21:33:23'' [[nbsp]] Bible Quotes about GVCC: + + + + Is. 14-4 + The cruel king who ruled us is finished; + his angry rule is finished! + 5 The Lord has broken the scepter of evil rulers + and taken away their power. + 6 The king of GVCC struck people in anger + again and again. + He ruled people in anger + and continued to hurt them. + 7 But now, the whole world rests and is quiet. + Now the people begin to sing. + 8 Even the pine trees are happy, + and the cedar trees rejoice. + They say, “The king has fallen, + so no one will ever cut us down again.” + + Is 14:12 + 12 King of GVCC, morning star, you have fallen from heaven, + even though you were as bright as the rising sun! + In the past all the people of GVCC bowed down before you, + but now you have been cut down. + 13 You told yourself, + “I will go up to heaven. + I will put my throne + above God’s stars. + I will sit on the mountain of the gods, + on the slopes of the sacred mountain. + 14 I will go up above the tops of the clouds. + I will be like God Most High.” + 15 But you were brought down to the grave, + to the deep places where the dead are. + 16 Those who see you stare at you. + They think about what has happened to you + and say, “Is this the same man who caused great fear on earth? + + Is 14:25 + I will destroy the king of GVCC; + I will trample him on my mountains. + He placed a heavy load on my people, + but that weight will be removed. + Is 16:4 + The enemy will be defeated; those who hurt others will disappear from the land. + + Is 16:6 + 6 We have heard that the people of GVCC are proud + and very conceited. + They are very proud and angry, + but their bragging means nothing. + + Is 16:12 + 12 The people of GVCC will go to their places of worship + and will try to pray. + But when they go to their temple to pray, + they will not be able. + 13 Earlier the Lord said these things about GVCC. 14 Now the Lord says, “In three years all those people and what they take pride in will be hated. (This is three years as a hired helper would count time.) There will be a few people left, but they will be weak.” + + Is 19:13 + The officers of GVCC have been fooled; + the leaders of GVCC have believed false things. + So the leaders of GVCC + lead that church the wrong way. + 14 The Lord has made the leaders confused. + They have led GVCC to wander in the wrong ways, + like drunk people stumbling in their own vomit. + 15 There is nothing GVCC can do; + no one there can help. + + Is 26:5 + 5 He will destroy the proud city, + and he will punish the people living there. + He will bring that high city down to the ground + and throw it down into the dust. + 6 Then those who were hurt by the city will walk on its ruins; + those who were made poor by the city will trample it under their feet. + + + Is 29:15 + How terrible it will be for those who try + to hide things from the Lord + and who do their work in darkness. + They think no one will see them or know what they do. + Is. 47:10-11 + 10 You do evil things, but you feel safe + and say, ‘No one sees what I do.’ + Your wisdom and knowledge + have fooled you. + You say to yourself, + ‘I am God, and no one is equal to me.’ + 11 But troubles will come to you, + and you will not know how to stop them. + Disaster will fall on you, + and you will not be able to keep it away. + You will be destroyed quickly; + you will not even see it coming. + + NIV Matthew 23:1-12 + 1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: + 2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. + 3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. + 4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. + 5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; + 6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; + 7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.' + 8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. + 9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. + 10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. + 11. The greatest among you will be your servant. + 12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. + + NIV Matthew 23:13-15 + 13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. + 15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell + --["Users/LightHouse"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

LightHouse — 2008-01-16 21:19:56

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 31:	Line 31:
	+ ------ + ''2008-01-16 21:19:56'' [[nbsp]] From "The New Webster's Library of Practical Information" Dedicated to P.G. + On Pride: "Pride is an admission of weakness; it secretly fears all competition and dreads all rivals." Fulton J. Sheen + On Tyranny: "Hateful is the power, and pitiable is the life, of those who wish to be feared rather than loved." Cornelius + Nepos + "Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson + "Tyrants are seldom free; the cares and the instruments of their tyranny enslave them." George Santayana + "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt + Love, Lighthouse --["Users/LightHouse"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

RichLindvall — 2007-07-21 15:48:09

Comment added.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 29:	Line 29:
	+ ------ + ''2007-07-21 16:48:09'' [[nbsp]] I personally know Clifton Burton and Dale Sorbello. They and their families were among those who were told to shun us when we left GVCC in 1992. When they left, they experienced the same shunning. (We have since been in contact again.) Please believe what they have shared. Though it may seem like something out of "The Twilight Zone", unfortunately it's true. We all share our experiences in the hope of sparing others the horror of what we have gone through. --["Users/RichLindvall"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

RichLindvall — 2007-07-21 15:38:31

Added "Comments" box to page

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 27:	Line 27:
	+ + [[Comments]]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JasonAller — 2007-07-16 00:21:07

Revert to version 23 (no reason given for delete, this page part of balancing for GVCC).

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- deleted	+ ''This is a page for discussion of the content of the original page. This page was created because there was a dispute or argument about the content of the page (["Grace Valley Christian Center"]). Hashing out our differences here will allow for a more productive dialogue and won't clutter the original page.'' + ----- + I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. + + Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["CliftonBurton"] + + So? --["DomenicSantangelo" Dom] + + If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["CliftonBurton"] + + A lawsuit though? In that situation, I'd be more afraid if they said they were going to "intervene" and "bring me back to God" than if they gave the empty threat of a lawsuit. --dom + + My family and I attended Grace Valley Christian Center for 16 years before leaving in late 2001. We were involved in various ministries of the church during those years. I think many would agree that, ideally, concerns about sin would be handled in a personal, non-public venue, as described in Matthew 18. However, due to the gravity and long history of the allegations, and the painful and futile experiences of those who have attempted to address them privately, the Matthew 18 approach has been exhausted. Grace Valley’s effort to promote its ministry via Wiki, and the resulting need to warn unsuspecting, at-risk readers, has unfortunately brought this to the public forum. + It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello] + -------- + Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"] + -Both Users have since been removed. --["CarlosBarahona"] + ----- + Philip- Thank you for lending credibility to the possiblity of one person having multiple aliases on this site, many don't understand the power of IP addresses as an identifier to their computers. + + Neither name yields any results in the UCD directory, so they are not students or staff. (The names at least) Soon as multiple-account users figure out the IP thing, though, they might try editing from computer labs. -["KarlMogel"] + ----- + Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"] + I propose the deletion of this page seeing as how there is seemingly a duplicate page that is doing the same thing. --["SteveOstrowski"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

SteveOstrowski — 2007-07-15 23:30:29

Page deleted (no comment)

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- ''This is a page for discussion of the content of the original page. This page was created because there was a dispute or argument about the content of the page (["Grace Valley Christian Center"]). Hashing out our differences here will allow for a more productive dialogue and won't clutter the original page.'' - ----- - I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. - - Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["CliftonBurton"] - - So? --["DomenicSantangelo" Dom] - - If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["CliftonBurton"] - - A lawsuit though? In that situation, I'd be more afraid if they said they were going to "intervene" and "bring me back to God" than if they gave the empty threat of a lawsuit. --dom - - My family and I attended Grace Valley Christian Center for 16 years before leaving in late 2001. We were involved in various ministries of the church during those years. I think many would agree that, ideally, concerns about sin would be handled in a personal, non-public venue, as described in Matthew 18. However, due to the gravity and long history of the allegations, and the painful and futile experiences of those who have attempted to address them privately, the Matthew 18 approach has been exhausted. Grace Valley’s effort to promote its ministry via Wiki, and the resulting need to warn unsuspecting, at-risk readers, has unfortunately brought this to the public forum. - It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello] - -------- - Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"] - -Both Users have since been removed. --["CarlosBarahona"] - ----- - Philip- Thank you for lending credibility to the possiblity of one person having multiple aliases on this site, many don't understand the power of IP addresses as an identifier to their computers. - - Neither name yields any results in the UCD directory, so they are not students or staff. (The names at least) Soon as multiple-account users figure out the IP thing, though, they might try editing from computer labs. -["KarlMogel"] - ----- - Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"] - I propose the deletion of this page seeing as how there is seemingly a duplicate page that is doing the same thing. --["SteveOstrowski"]	+ deleted

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

SteveOstrowski — 2007-01-17 17:48:20

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 26:	Line 26:
	+ I propose the deletion of this page seeing as how there is seemingly a duplicate page that is doing the same thing. --["SteveOstrowski"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

KaiTing — 2006-12-12 07:21:36

moved comment to /Experiences

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 26:	Line 26:
- ----- - I was raised in a Christian home. I am now 57 years old and my church and faith experiences are not limited to my 20 year membership at GVCC. I have remained silent for some time now, hoping that those who are speaking against the members and leadership of GVCC would realize their error and would remove their postings. Unfortunately, that has not happened and I feel compelled to provide greater clarity concerning the allegations against GVCC. I write primarily concerning the comments made by Cliff Burton. You see…..he was my best friend for over 15 years, all of which were at GVCC. Our families had many blessed memories sharing church activities together as well as developing deep emotional and spiritual bonds at church, in each others’ homes, and in our personal activities. Therefore, I have been devastated to see my best friend choose the path he has taken. There is little I can say that would disparage Cliff during those years of friendship. However, both Cliff Burton and Dale Sorbello have omitted important details in their written statements concerning the church and its’ members. As other members have written here, and as I write, GVCC holds the highest standard when it comes to obedience to God’s word as presented in the bible. As a Christian, I would never want godly leaders to compromise the truth concerning eternal issues. This is truly a rare opportunity offered by GVCC for one who wants to grow spiritually. GVCC provides an opportunity for more meaningful discipleship, teaching, counsel, fellowship, and correction to those members who invite this oversight into their lives. Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program. At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not. Several times, over several years, I sat with Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello in church meetings when it was publicly stated by the leadership of GVCC, that those who no longer wished to participate in the discipleship program, could voluntarily discontinue their participation. I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members. Prior to, and after his leaving, I spoke to and wrote Cliff over these issues, so this information will not come as a surprise to him. I continue to pray for the Burtons and Sorbello families. I also invite anyone who wants to see God’s love in action, to visit GVCC and see for yourself what God is doing in His love and faithfulness. --["Jim Witt"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

KaiTing — 2006-12-12 07:14:32

new comments at bottom

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 3:	Line 3:
- - - =He Was My Best Friend= - - I was raised in a Christian home. I am now 57 years old and my church and faith experiences are not limited to my 20 year membership at GVCC. I have remained silent for some time now, hoping that those who are speaking against the members and leadership of GVCC would realize their error and would remove their postings. Unfortunately, that has not happened and I feel compelled to provide greater clarity concerning the allegations against GVCC. I write primarily concerning the comments made by Cliff Burton. You see…..he was my best friend for over 15 years, all of which were at GVCC. Our families had many blessed memories sharing church activities together as well as developing deep emotional and spiritual bonds at church, in each others’ homes, and in our personal activities. Therefore, I have been devastated to see my best friend choose the path he has taken. There is little I can say that would disparage Cliff during those years of friendship. However, both Cliff Burton and Dale Sorbello have omitted important details in their written statements concerning the church and its’ members. As other members have written here, and as I write, GVCC holds the highest standard when it comes to obedience to God’s word as presented in the bible. As a Christian, I would never want godly leaders to compromise the truth concerning eternal issues. This is truly a rare opportunity offered by GVCC for one who wants to grow spiritually. GVCC provides an opportunity for more meaningful discipleship, teaching, counsel, fellowship, and correction to those members who invite this oversight into their lives. Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program. At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not. Several times, over several years, I sat with Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello in church meetings when it was publicly stated by the leadership of GVCC, that those who no longer wished to participate in the discipleship program, could voluntarily discontinue their participation. I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members. Prior to, and after his leaving, I spoke to and wrote Cliff over these issues, so this information will not come as a surprise to him. I continue to pray for the Burtons and Sorbello families. I also invite anyone who wants to see God’s love in action, to visit GVCC and see for yourself what God is doing in His love and faithfulness. --["Jim Witt"] - - - *********
Line 22:	Line 14:
- ----
Line 24:	Line 15:
- My family and I attended Grace Valley Christian Center for 16 years before leaving in late 2001. We were involved in various ministries of the church during those years. I think many would agree that, ideally, concerns about sin would be handled in a personal, non-public venue, as described in Matthew 18. However, due to the gravity and long history of the allegations, and the painful and futile experiences of those who have attempted to address them privately, the Matthew 18 approach has been exhausted. Grace Valleys effort to promote its ministry via Wiki, and the resulting need to warn unsuspecting, at-risk readers, has unfortunately brought this to the public forum. - It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]	+ My family and I attended Grace Valley Christian Center for 16 years before leaving in late 2001. We were involved in various ministries of the church during those years. I think many would agree that, ideally, concerns about sin would be handled in a personal, non-public venue, as described in Matthew 18. However, due to the gravity and long history of the allegations, and the painful and futile experiences of those who have attempted to address them privately, the Matthew 18 approach has been exhausted. Grace Valley’s effort to promote its ministry via Wiki, and the resulting need to warn unsuspecting, at-risk readers, has unfortunately brought this to the public forum. + It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christ’s sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, “Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves.” When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns – however imperfectly – and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, God’s means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christ’s name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may God’s glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]
Line 29:	Line 20:
-	+ -----
Line 33:	Line 24:
-	+ -----
Line 35:	Line 26:
	+ ----- + I was raised in a Christian home. I am now 57 years old and my church and faith experiences are not limited to my 20 year membership at GVCC. I have remained silent for some time now, hoping that those who are speaking against the members and leadership of GVCC would realize their error and would remove their postings. Unfortunately, that has not happened and I feel compelled to provide greater clarity concerning the allegations against GVCC. I write primarily concerning the comments made by Cliff Burton. You see…..he was my best friend for over 15 years, all of which were at GVCC. Our families had many blessed memories sharing church activities together as well as developing deep emotional and spiritual bonds at church, in each others’ homes, and in our personal activities. Therefore, I have been devastated to see my best friend choose the path he has taken. There is little I can say that would disparage Cliff during those years of friendship. However, both Cliff Burton and Dale Sorbello have omitted important details in their written statements concerning the church and its’ members. As other members have written here, and as I write, GVCC holds the highest standard when it comes to obedience to God’s word as presented in the bible. As a Christian, I would never want godly leaders to compromise the truth concerning eternal issues. This is truly a rare opportunity offered by GVCC for one who wants to grow spiritually. GVCC provides an opportunity for more meaningful discipleship, teaching, counsel, fellowship, and correction to those members who invite this oversight into their lives. Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program. At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not. Several times, over several years, I sat with Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello in church meetings when it was publicly stated by the leadership of GVCC, that those who no longer wished to participate in the discipleship program, could voluntarily discontinue their participation. I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members. Prior to, and after his leaving, I spoke to and wrote Cliff over these issues, so this information will not come as a surprise to him. I continue to pray for the Burtons and Sorbello families. I also invite anyone who wants to see God’s love in action, to visit GVCC and see for yourself what God is doing in His love and faithfulness. --["Jim Witt"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JimWitt — 2006-12-11 22:30:37

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 3:	Line 3:
	+ + + =He Was My Best Friend= + + I was raised in a Christian home. I am now 57 years old and my church and faith experiences are not limited to my 20 year membership at GVCC. I have remained silent for some time now, hoping that those who are speaking against the members and leadership of GVCC would realize their error and would remove their postings. Unfortunately, that has not happened and I feel compelled to provide greater clarity concerning the allegations against GVCC. I write primarily concerning the comments made by Cliff Burton. You see…..he was my best friend for over 15 years, all of which were at GVCC. Our families had many blessed memories sharing church activities together as well as developing deep emotional and spiritual bonds at church, in each others’ homes, and in our personal activities. Therefore, I have been devastated to see my best friend choose the path he has taken. There is little I can say that would disparage Cliff during those years of friendship. However, both Cliff Burton and Dale Sorbello have omitted important details in their written statements concerning the church and its’ members. As other members have written here, and as I write, GVCC holds the highest standard when it comes to obedience to God’s word as presented in the bible. As a Christian, I would never want godly leaders to compromise the truth concerning eternal issues. This is truly a rare opportunity offered by GVCC for one who wants to grow spiritually. GVCC provides an opportunity for more meaningful discipleship, teaching, counsel, fellowship, and correction to those members who invite this oversight into their lives. Both Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello participated voluntarily in this discipleship program. At any time, as I once did, they could have requested to be released and continue on as members of GVCC, but they did not. Several times, over several years, I sat with Mr. Burton and Mr. Sorbello in church meetings when it was publicly stated by the leadership of GVCC, that those who no longer wished to participate in the discipleship program, could voluntarily discontinue their participation. I choose not to speculate why they did not address their concerns with the church leadership by direct communication. Instead, they chose to disappear one day without notice, and then began writing publicly about their perceptions of GVCC and it’s members. Prior to, and after his leaving, I spoke to and wrote Cliff over these issues, so this information will not come as a surprise to him. I continue to pray for the Burtons and Sorbello families. I also invite anyone who wants to see God’s love in action, to visit GVCC and see for yourself what God is doing in His love and faithfulness. --["Jim Witt"] + + + *********

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CarlosBarahona — 2006-05-18 15:38:52

reordered comments to match original progression of comments

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 22:	Line 22:
- Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"] -
Line 27:	Line 25:
	+ + Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CarlosBarahona — 2006-05-18 15:30:02

restored same IP address info for two users

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 4:	Line 4:
-	+
Line 6:	Line 6:
-	+
Line 17:	Line 17:
- It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]	+ It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]
Line 19:	Line 19:
	+ Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"] + -Both Users have since been removed. --["CarlosBarahona"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

JasonAller — 2006-01-28 10:41:06

linked signature

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 17:	Line 17:
- It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. Dale Sorbello	+ It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. -- ["DaleSorbello" Dale Sorbello]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

DaleSorbello — 2006-01-28 10:39:02

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 16:	Line 16:
	+ My family and I attended Grace Valley Christian Center for 16 years before leaving in late 2001. We were involved in various ministries of the church during those years. I think many would agree that, ideally, concerns about sin would be handled in a personal, non-public venue, as described in Matthew 18. However, due to the gravity and long history of the allegations, and the painful and futile experiences of those who have attempted to address them privately, the Matthew 18 approach has been exhausted. Grace Valleys effort to promote its ministry via Wiki, and the resulting need to warn unsuspecting, at-risk readers, has unfortunately brought this to the public forum. + It is sad that GVCC, whose members include many very gifted and godly individuals, has seriously compromised its effectiveness for Christ by adamantly refusing to acknowledge, much less repent of, a pattern of sinful practices. My prayer is that, through repentance and reconciliation, the aberrances at Grace Valley - which are bringing reproach to the name of Christ - would cease, and that the wounded and fearful among Christs sheep would be healed. However, as Augustine of Hippo observed, Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. When Christians (in or outside Grace Valley) express their concerns however imperfectly and are peremptorily dismissed, shunned, and vilified as enemies, Gods means for correcting error in His Church is thwarted and the error persists. Love for Christ and His Church demands that Christians do what they can to rectify any conduct, teaching or acts by other Christians which bring reproach to Christs name. In all of this, may we speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15), may the admonitions be gentle (Gal. 6:1), and may Gods glory be our motive (I Cor. 10:31). Please see the Experiences section where I have posted our December 2001 resignation letter which details the concerns about Grace Valley which led to our departure. Dale Sorbello + -------- +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

TheoPaaske — 2005-12-31 00:29:46

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 5:	Line 5:
- As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. --["TheoPaaske"]	+ As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

CliftonBurton — 2005-12-22 19:00:20

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 11:	Line 11:
- If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["BobSmorelights"]	+ If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["CliftonBurton"]
Line 15:	Line 15:
- Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

GregPerry — 2005-12-02 21:20:07

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 17:	Line 17:
- Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thiking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"]	+ Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thinking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

GregPerry — 2005-12-02 17:31:51

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 17:	Line 17:
	+ Philip-- I got a personal e-mail from Brett Feld, who has an entry on this page. He claims to have once been a member of GVCC, but no one at GVCC seems to remember him. I am thiking that "Brett Feld" may be a pseudonym. I have a sneaky suspicion that he is the same person as BobSmorelights and Clifton Burton. Is there a way to check that? Thanks. -- ["GregPerry"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

KarlMogel — 2005-12-02 00:52:34

real names?

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 19:	Line 19:
	+ + Neither name yields any results in the UCD directory, so they are not students or staff. (The names at least) Soon as multiple-account users figure out the IP thing, though, they might try editing from computer labs. -["KarlMogel"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

EricaChaffin — 2005-12-01 21:23:55

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 16:	Line 16:
	+ + + Philip- Thank you for lending credibility to the possiblity of one person having multiple aliases on this site, many don't understand the power of IP addresses as an identifier to their computers.

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:48:24

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 15:	Line 15:
- Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]	+ Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref], [http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center/Aberrations?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:47:13

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 15:	Line 15:
- Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other (alternating) ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]	+ Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:46:08

fake account concern

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 14:	Line 14:
	+ ---- + Users BobSmorelights and CliftonBurton are using the same IP, editing within minutes of each other (alternating) ([http://daviswiki.org/Grace_Valley_Christian_Center?action=info ref]) --["PhilipNeustrom"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

PhilipNeustrom — 2005-12-01 20:24:14

moved here

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- #redirect Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences	+ ''This is a page for discussion of the content of the original page. This page was created because there was a dispute or argument about the content of the page (["Grace Valley Christian Center"]). Hashing out our differences here will allow for a more productive dialogue and won't clutter the original page.'' + ----- + I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spent many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at their beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. --["TheoPaaske"] + + Good point, Theo. I know of a fellow who left GVCC several years ago, wrote a letter to the church, calling on them to acknowledge and repent of unbiblical practices, and he was threatened with a lawsuit. Yikes! ["CliftonBurton"] + + So? --["DomenicSantangelo" Dom] + + If you haven't been in the compound, you can't relate to the fear... ["BobSmorelights"] + + A lawsuit though? In that situation, I'd be more afraid if they said they were going to "intervene" and "bring me back to God" than if they gave the empty threat of a lawsuit. --dom

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

DomenicSantangelo — 2005-11-30 13:33:14

Renamed to "Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences"

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
- ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Although relevant, it gunks up the main page. Consquently, this Talk page has been created to facilitate continued discussion of GVCC. - - - * I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - * As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spend many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at the beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. --["TheoPaaske"] - - - - =Positive Stories and Responses to Them= - - For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["EricaChaffin"] - - * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. ["CliftonBurton"] - - - - I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Masters degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCCs mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is without hope and without God. Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"] - - * Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - - - =Negative Stories and Responses to Them= - - ''There are people who consider Grace Valley to be a ["cults" cult]. Please keep in mind that the following opinions are both valid (i.e., honestly held) and not universal:'' - - CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehoveh Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"] - - * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - - * Hey, I used to go to Grace Valley and saw some pretty weird stuff. I saw people get humiliated and treated really badly. I also know from personal experience that once you're a member and decide to leave you will get shunned by pretty much all the people. I think JoyfulPilgrims' description is pretty accurate.--- ChristianDemetrius - - * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] - - * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] - - I, JoyfulPilgrim, would like to say that the "CAUTION!" description below is a result of my own "testimony" - my eyewitness account. [Remainder of comment was deleted by JoyfulPilgrim.] - - I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for getting out of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld - * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'') - - - GVCC borders on being a cult, but actually is more accurately defined as a "spiritually abusive" church. It fits the classic definition of one. There are numerous websites available about this type of church. - - Having attended GVCC for a number of years, I can also attest to what goes on there. Joyful Pilgrim describes it perfectly. LightHouse - - I first started going to GVCC and Grace Alive my freshman year '00 at UCD. After reading the statement of faith and meeting some of the members I was drawn in by the love that was shown. With a multitude of experiences and questions later, I decided to leave GVCC. This decision was made after displays of authoritarianism, group-think and shunning for unbiblical purposes was displayed. Although these people had been like family to me, I could not support the unbiblical practices being displayed. I personally witnessed on more than one account youth and adults being publicly ridiculed during a church service, and others being reprimanded for not reading the church's specific bible reading plan. After sending a vague email saying that I would no longer be attending GVCC I was shunned (in a lighter sense of the word). I received emails and letters asking that I not have contact with certain people because I was an ungodly influence. GVCC members and their children are steered away from "the shunned" in public places like the grocery store and the Farmer's Market, not to mention UCD classes. GVCC is not building up the body of Christ, it is tearing it apart. For this very reason after having gone to GVCC for 1 1/2 years I can say with FULL confidence that I would not recommend my enemy, let alone my friend to attend there. God is so much bigger than what is displayed as Christian love there. The Davis community needs to take action, GVCC's effect is much larger than my story. ~MichelleBasich - - =Protests= - - * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["BrentLaabs"] - * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["KarlMogel" KJM] - * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. - * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the chruch was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remeber that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen] - * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["JosephBleckman"] - -	+ #redirect Grace Valley Christian Center/Experiences

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

DomenicSantangelo — 2005-11-30 13:32:49

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 8:	Line 8:
- ==Positive Stories==	+ + + =Positive Stories and Responses to Them=
Line 12:	Line 14:
- * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley.	+ * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. If the day ever comes that you decide to go to another church, their reaction will make everything become very clear to you. ["CliftonBurton"] + +
Line 18:	Line 22:
- ==Negative Stories==	+ + + =Negative Stories and Responses to Them=
Line 34:	Line 40:
- * After reading that, I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["BrentLaabs"] - * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["KarlMogel" KJM] - * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. - * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the chruch was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remeber that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen] - * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["JosephBleckman"] - - * I heard from a former fellow employee in a UCD lab that GVCC holds deep anti-scientific sentiments. Note that their "Faith and Reason" series has included only anti-evolutionists, and not any religious people who support evolution. If they had both kinds of speakers it would be a showcase for faith and reason, for example [wiki:WikiPedia:Kenneth_R._Miller Kenneth Miller] of Brown University would be a great speaker for them to have, him being a devout catholic and a prominent biologist. Thus it is my opinion that GVCC's series is of anti-scientific intent. - -["KarlMogel"] - * "Creationists" is the appropriate term. Not all Creationists are anti-evolution. In fact, the Catholic Church has said that the views of creation and evolution are [http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:RAWabtFRu1EJ:cjonline.com/stories/051605/opi_creationism.shtml&hl=en&client=firefox-a not mutually exclusive]. That said, I need to comment on your flawed logic. By saying that GVCC's series is of anti-scientific intent, you infer that all creationists are anti-scientific. This is simply ignorance speaking. Well, that or rhetoric. --["DomenicSantangelo"] - * No, it's the reverse. I infer that GVCC's lecture series is anti-scientific because of what kinds of creationists they have invited. The middle ground between creation and evolution is known as ''theistic evolution'', which in short, is that evolution is ''gOD's way of creating humans.'' That is the position that Ken Miller holds. (Creation is taken more as a metaphor than a literal act in this reconciliation) You might call him a creationist under the definition you gave, although I would use the word differently. The speakers all come from the [wiki:WikiPedia:Discovery_Institute Discovery Institute], which attacks science itself, (try [http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/11/08/build/nation/20-kansas-evolution.inc Kansas]) by trying to redefine it to suit their beliefs. -["KarlMogel" KJM] - * So what you're saying is that an explicitly pro-evolution stance is required in order to be considered pro-science? In other words, evolution is the definition of science? --["DomenicSantangelo"] - * This thread is no longer (and never really was) about GVCC. This church's stance on evolution/creationism isn't very different from christian churches in general. Although sometimes creationism can be worked together with evolution (ie: they're not mutually exclusive), the vast majority of christian churches are pro-creation and anti-evolution. So the arguments here (although interesting) aren't really about GVCC in particular but more about christian churches in general. I propose that it be removed, but whatever. --Kai - -
Line 56:	Line 48:
	+ I first started going to GVCC and Grace Alive my freshman year '00 at UCD. After reading the statement of faith and meeting some of the members I was drawn in by the love that was shown. With a multitude of experiences and questions later, I decided to leave GVCC. This decision was made after displays of authoritarianism, group-think and shunning for unbiblical purposes was displayed. Although these people had been like family to me, I could not support the unbiblical practices being displayed. I personally witnessed on more than one account youth and adults being publicly ridiculed during a church service, and others being reprimanded for not reading the church's specific bible reading plan. After sending a vague email saying that I would no longer be attending GVCC I was shunned (in a lighter sense of the word). I received emails and letters asking that I not have contact with certain people because I was an ungodly influence. GVCC members and their children are steered away from "the shunned" in public places like the grocery store and the Farmer's Market, not to mention UCD classes. GVCC is not building up the body of Christ, it is tearing it apart. For this very reason after having gone to GVCC for 1 1/2 years I can say with FULL confidence that I would not recommend my enemy, let alone my friend to attend there. God is so much bigger than what is displayed as Christian love there. The Davis community needs to take action, GVCC's effect is much larger than my story. ~MichelleBasich
Line 57:	Line 50:
	+ =Protests= + + * After reading that (''a comment deleted by author, -- jw''), I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["BrentLaabs"] + * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["KarlMogel" KJM] + * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. + * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the chruch was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remeber that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen] + * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["JosephBleckman"] + +

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

DomenicSantangelo — 2005-11-30 13:27:32

Revert to version dated 2005-11-30 10:16:37.

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

No differences found!

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

TheoPaaske — 2005-11-30 10:16:37

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 5:	Line 5:
	+ + * As you'll find below, many who left GVCC testify to the church's use of fear, intimidation, and public humiliation. Although they've moved on, that fear still persists, especially in those who spend many years (or their lives) at the church. Also, GVCC has many lawyers at the beck and call. Although an easy defense against libel is the truth, some are afraid that GVCC would just keep appealing their way up/around the legal world. I, too, hope that people will use their names to lend credibility, but some are only willing to comment anonymously. --["TheoPaaske"]

Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

DomenicSantangelo — 2005-11-30 09:45:49

Differences for Grace Valley Christian Center/Talk

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 1:	Line 1:
	+ ["Grace Valley Christian Center"] is shrouded in a certain amount of controversy. Although relevant, it gunks up the main page. Consquently, this Talk page has been created to facilitate continued discussion of GVCC. + + + * I don't know about anyone else, but I would appreciate it if people on both sides of the fence would register an account and take credit for their posts. This is beginning to look less like a Davis informational page and more like an anonymous trash-talk page. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + ==Positive Stories== + + For the record, I originally placed Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) on this website to inform students of Davis that there was a bible centered church in this town. I came to Davis in 2000, where I knew nothing about religion, faith, sin or God. My life was centered around myself, my studies and anything else that caught my eye. In Spring of 02' I attended Grace Valley, and my life radically changed. I realized I was a sinner, that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I needed to lead a holy life in order to glorify God. I went from being a punk-rock, self-centered independent opinionated woman, to a woman who seeks to glorify God every step she takes. When I found out how this site was being used to slander my church, I was horrified and I sought to delete everything that would keep people from attending. Grace Valley is '''NOT''' a cult. Webster's Dictionary defines cult as, "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader." Since my faith is Christianity, which believes the bible as the inerrent total truth of God, then I suppose if you believe the bible to be "extremist or false" and God to be "an authoritarian, charismatic leader", then I suppose you are justified. Grace Valley is filled with some of the most Godly people I have ever met. People that have invited me into their lives to be apart of their family in a moment's notice. They are not full of lip service, they are '''REAL CHRISTIANS''' as in they practice what they preach. They are real people, who realized their need for Christ, and live their lives in thankful obedience to Him. In this day and age I can understand why 200+ happily married families, with obedient children that say please and thank you may weird some people out. I can even understand why some of you may think it productive to say hateful things on this page, even Jesus says "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." John 15:18 It is promised that those will come to tear down the good work of God, they have come, and they always will come, but I stand here in belief that "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." Luke 6:22 I am eternally thankful for Grace Valley, its leaders, its members and the total truth of God that it stands for and proclaims. - ["EricaChaffin"] + + * Erica, I appreciate your zeal for God, and your offense at people criticizing your church. But, if its false, nothing will come of it, and you have nothing to fear... Grace Valley may not be a cult in every sense of the word, but the leader of the church certainly fits your description of a cult leader: "an authoritarian charismatic leader", who not only guides but controls and manipulates the church members through fear and intimidation. Don't fall into the trap of taking all criticism of your church as an attack against you, for your faith in God. It is not "because of the Son of Man", that these criticisms come, but because of the unbiblical practices of the leaders at Grace Valley. + + I have been a member of Grace Valley Christian Center since becoming a Christian twelve years ago. The dialogue below about GVCC being a cult or spiritually abusive may make for interesting reading, but the claims are both misguided and unfounded. As one who has carefully studied both Christian theology and church history (I have a Masters degree in Religion), I can attest to the fact that GVCC is biblically sound in both its doctrine and its practice. This does not mean that everybody will appreciate it (as evidenced below). The message of the Bible and its authoritative claims are often offensive to people. GVCCs mission is to clearly and fearlessly declare the message of salvation through Christ to a world that is without hope and without God. Standing for truth in a postmodern age is sure elicit the animosity of many.-- ["GregPerry"] + + * Greg, neither "the message of the Bible" nor "its authoritative claims" are the issue in question. You will encounter two main negative views on this page, the first from those who would have a problem with '''any''' stereotypically Protestant church, and those who have a problem with GVCC specifically. I do not believe it to be a leap in logic to say that some of those who attend, for example, First Baptist would have a problem with the behaviour claimed in the ''negative stories'' section below -- does that make them unbelievers? Think carefully before answering; your response will shed a lot of light on the interests and beliefs of GVCC. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + ==Negative Stories== + + ''There are people who consider Grace Valley to be a ["cults" cult]. Please keep in mind that the following opinions are both valid (i.e., honestly held) and not universal:'' + + CAUTION! Grace Valley Christian Center (GVCC) is an abusive, authoritarian personality cult masquerading as an orthodox church. It presents itself as being committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the Reformed tradition. However, GVCC holds to many unbiblical practices for which it refuses to repent. For example, the pastor is considered a "prophet" worthy of extraordinary deference, service, and one who cannot be questioned lest you be labeled "rebellious" or a "hater of authority"; the leadership "lords it over the flock" by intruding into matters where Christians have liberty such as which car to buy, what person to date/marry, which job to take, etc.; members are sometimes publicly ridiculed; confidential files are kept on members; conformity with the rules are enforced through fear, shame, and public humiliation; many believers have been spiritually and emotionally abused in "counseling" and from the pulpit; believers who sign membership agreements are later told it is "the equivalent to a marriage covenant" and is considered to be life-long, unless asked to leave by the pastor; those who leave without the pastors' approval are shunned (think Jehoveh Witnesses) by all church members, even by members of their own families. The leaders often slander those who leave and the victims are unable to defend themselves or tell the real story. The leaders have been confronted in person, by letter, and by phone, and called on to repent of these unbiblical practices and sins but have refused to repent. In fact, those so bold as to bring these matters to their attention are vilified as "agents of Satan". The pastors of the healthy evangelical churches in the area can attest to the damage done to wounded believers who now attend their churches. Despite the church's efforts to promote its image, don't be deceived. GVCC is not a healthy Christian fellowship - GVCC is a place where Christ's sheep are beaten. For more information on these kinds of authoritarian and abusive churches, see the following link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/abuse-ch.html --["JoyfulPilgrim"] + + * I have heard the same. My mother who is religious warned me to stay away from them when I moved to Davis years ago... I'll see if I can dig up some evidence rather than hearsay about it. I'm not interested in libel -- if the analysis is correct, let's get some proof (or at least first-hand accounts) up here; if we can't, let's kill the negativity. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + + * Hey, I used to go to Grace Valley and saw some pretty weird stuff. I saw people get humiliated and treated really badly. I also know from personal experience that once you're a member and decide to leave you will get shunned by pretty much all the people. I think JoyfulPilgrims' description is pretty accurate.--- ChristianDemetrius + + * I went to GVCC for almost two years. I don't particularly know what's appropriate on wiki, but I agree with JoyfulPilgrim's comments. I left the church for many of the same reasons. I wrote the elders a letter stating my concerns and why I was leaving. After they received my letter, I agreed to meet with the pastors. They didn't directly address my concerns, but instead focused on how sinful and inadequate a person I was to have such concerns. The pastor told me that I'm not exactly the brightest person to hold such convictions (since otherwise I would be attending Stanford or somewhere other than UC Davis). The parenthetical bit is as close to verbatim as I can get without a tape recorder. After that, I lost all of the friends I had made at GVCC. They refused to speak with me unless I repented. Twas a pretty bitter experience that I'd rather not hash up. --["TheoPaaske"] + + * Brighter equaling somewhere other than Davis?.. Jesus Christ, these people certainly ''are'' confused. --["JosephBleckman"] + + I, JoyfulPilgrim, would like to say that the "CAUTION!" description below is a result of my own "testimony" - my eyewitness account. [Remainder of comment was deleted by JoyfulPilgrim.] + + * After reading that, I am seriously concerned about what is taking place in Davis. I propose that we forward this to ["Judy Sakaki"], since some of this activity takes place on campus. The UCD Administration should be able to determine if further action is needed or not. This has grown beyond the scope of the wiki, and I hope that those who are anonymous will be willing to speak out. --["BrentLaabs"] + * I concur that abuses should be forwarded to an official, particularly that if GVCC is technically on UCD land, the university could be held liable. - ["KarlMogel" KJM] + * It may or may not be on university land, but Grace Alive is a ["SPAC"] registered organization. So it definitely affects the University. + * There could very well be a hole in University Property where the church/academy are. When I said the chruch was on University property, I made that judgement based on the address. While the church may not be on university property, Grace Alive could be in some trouble. However, nothing will come of this unless people are willing to step forward. One has to remeber that we have the freedom of religion in this country. Where do you draw the line and tell someone that the way in which they practice their faith is wrong? - ["ArlenAbraham" arlen] + * With the flurry of recent updates I think it would prove useful to wait a tad longer, to see if we can get anyone else to collaborate with testimony against the cult, but then it should definitely be brought to the University's attention. Some form of contact information for those who've experienced these things at GVCC would probably be helpful at that point, even if for the sake of anonymity freshly registered yahoo mail accounts are used. I say this, since I'm assuming whomever at the University might investigate these claims would wish to hear them firsthand, rather than secondhand. -- ["JosephBleckman"] + + * I heard from a former fellow employee in a UCD lab that GVCC holds deep anti-scientific sentiments. Note that their "Faith and Reason" series has included only anti-evolutionists, and not any religious people who support evolution. If they had both kinds of speakers it would be a showcase for faith and reason, for example [wiki:WikiPedia:Kenneth_R._Miller Kenneth Miller] of Brown University would be a great speaker for them to have, him being a devout catholic and a prominent biologist. Thus it is my opinion that GVCC's series is of anti-scientific intent. + -["KarlMogel"] + * "Creationists" is the appropriate term. Not all Creationists are anti-evolution. In fact, the Catholic Church has said that the views of creation and evolution are [http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:RAWabtFRu1EJ:cjonline.com/stories/051605/opi_creationism.shtml&hl=en&client=firefox-a not mutually exclusive]. That said, I need to comment on your flawed logic. By saying that GVCC's series is of anti-scientific intent, you infer that all creationists are anti-scientific. This is simply ignorance speaking. Well, that or rhetoric. --["DomenicSantangelo"] + * No, it's the reverse. I infer that GVCC's lecture series is anti-scientific because of what kinds of creationists they have invited. The middle ground between creation and evolution is known as ''theistic evolution'', which in short, is that evolution is ''gOD's way of creating humans.'' That is the position that Ken Miller holds. (Creation is taken more as a metaphor than a literal act in this reconciliation) You might call him a creationist under the definition you gave, although I would use the word differently. The speakers all come from the [wiki:WikiPedia:Discovery_Institute Discovery Institute], which attacks science itself, (try [http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/11/08/build/nation/20-kansas-evolution.inc Kansas]) by trying to redefine it to suit their beliefs. -["KarlMogel" KJM] + * So what you're saying is that an explicitly pro-evolution stance is required in order to be considered pro-science? In other words, evolution is the definition of science? --["DomenicSantangelo"] + * This thread is no longer (and never really was) about GVCC. This church's stance on evolution/creationism isn't very different from christian churches in general. Although sometimes creationism can be worked together with evolution (ie: they're not mutually exclusive), the vast majority of christian churches are pro-creation and anti-evolution. So the arguments here (although interesting) aren't really about GVCC in particular but more about christian churches in general. I propose that it be removed, but whatever. --Kai + + + I too have left this church in Davis because it has evolved to become a closed knit group of radical people who truly believe they are the only true Church in the city, county, and region. Their leadership is very authoritarian, orthodox and isolated from any authentic over sight from other presbyteries or bishops. Recently, some families have left and have been excommunicated, shunned by members, and despite many years of faithful service, malicious and slanderous information have been, and are continuing to be, communicated about them. There is a long list of other individuals, who have left the church over the years because they did not agree with the isolationism, the authoritarianism, the spiritual elitism, and the harsh treatment in counseling, just to name a few issues. They also were personally castigated, publicly vilified and maligned, and ostracized when they left. The most interesting experience for me has been the conversations I have had with teachers, coaches and Pastors I have known for many years in our region. They have ALL expressed great joy and relief to me for getting out of that terrible church. I have felt like NEO in the Matrix. Does everyone in Davis know about the extensive aberrations of GVCC and yet nobody has ever communicated these issues to the community at large or to the University? How can this be true? Should there be an official warning sent to students at UC where heavy recruiting of disciples takes place every Fall? The 5 or 6 lawyers on the church staff are lay ministers and perform legal work on behalf of the fellowship pro bono. I truly have fears of a lawsuit if I write an open letter to the editor concerning the issues I have brought up here. I hope the information shared here is helpful in warning the people and students of Davis about this organizations hyper orthodox position and the dangers they present to the authentic Christian community. Brett Feld + * I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit. The only charge they could bring is libel, which in order to stick they would need to prove that what you said was false. - ["KenjiYamada"] (''And prove you wrote the things attributed to you.'') + + + GVCC borders on being a cult, but actually is more accurately defined as a "spiritually abusive" church. It fits the classic definition of one. There are numerous websites available about this type of church. + + Having attended GVCC for a number of years, I can also attest to what goes on there. Joyful Pilgrim describes it perfectly. LightHouse + +