Recent Changes for "Mishka's Cafe" - Davis Wiki

Mishka's Cafe

Patrick.M — 2009-10-08 20:42:01

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	+ ------ + ''2009-10-08 21:42:01'' [[nbsp]] I think The Rule is absolutely the best thing a coffee shop could do in this day. Be thankful, coffee shops in other parts of the country are starting to simply take away the outlets. I see a lot of comments about how rude, cold, pretentious, etc. the clientele and/or staff are. I really don't get that. My experience has been positive. People in the shop have been nice to me if I had to interact and the people behind the counter were courteous and got me my coffee. Nice atmosphere overall but can't say I love the music. Will go back repeatedly. --["Users/Patrick.M"]

Mishka's Cafe

GarrettGallegos — 2009-09-22 11:05:33

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	+ ------ + ''2009-09-22 12:05:33'' [[nbsp]] Best Coffee In Town! I'm a coffee addict who has floated around to many different coffee shops over the years, when I came to Davis a few yrs ago, I was scared of Mishka's because of the hippies, but lo and behold it turned out to be the best in town! And catching them on a morning when they are roasting beans...mmm mmm delicious... + + I'm not a big fan of moving that little antique building next to the Varsity for a new building, and I like that little old brick patio with the trees (which would be GREAT for an outside coffee patio), but on the other hand it's never been put to good use in the past, so if they must, that's ok with me. + + I don't know why so many people think they are rude, I have been going here almost every weekday for two years (and I'm not stuck-up or a yuppie!) - i have probably had 1-2 bad experiences only on weekends, which is my own fault for going there on weekends when the regulars aren't working. The staff knows me by name, and just about everyone who works there is awesome (some night/weekend staff excluded). To all the people who think they are rude, you must have either been rude to them, or just be retarded or deaf if you didn't hear them call your coffee. + + If you are pissed at "The Rule", then trying opening a coffee shop and letting people fill the place up while drinking free water for hours on end - it's a coffee shop and a business - not a library - it's simple math, nothing to do with opinions. Yes, many of the customers are weirdos, but that's not Mishka's fault, that all of humanity's fault. You can't walk 1/2 a block in Downtown Davis without 5 douchebags getting in your way. If you really think the crowd at Peets or Starbucks [stuck up yuppies with negative attitudes] is just sooooo awesome, then by all means go there. If you think the music sucks, go to Peets and listen to some classical crap with the yuppies from Wildhorse. + + If you want good coffee, and good people watching from the weirdos that hang out there, then shut up and go to Mishka's. This place rocks. --["Users/GarrettGallegos"]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 23:28:33

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- * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part; even so, I wrote in a general, indirect manner to avoid any sense of personal slight, which would be pointless, really. Re-read my response and note its generality and lack of personal directedness. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling, especially the presumed personal elements which were not there in the original. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. Although I have met my fair share of naive Nietzsche enthusiasts who, after reading TSZ, think themselves set apart from the herd without even knowing what that means. At any rate, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's :) -Z	+ * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part; even so, I wrote in a general, indirect manner to avoid any sense of personal slight, which would be pointless, really. Re-read my response and note its generality and lack of personal directedness. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling, especially the presumed personal elements which were not there in the original. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. Although I have met my fair share of naive Nietzsche enthusiasts who, after reading TSZ, think themselves set apart from the herd without even knowing what that means. At any rate, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's, partially drawing on my own past experience as a bookseller when I was an undergraduate :) -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 23:06:41

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- * Adopting a critical response doesn't entail condescension. As Jean-Luc Picard once said, "Don't confuse style with intent." :) But yeah, good response, Em. -Z	+ * Adopting a critical response doesn't entail condescension. As Jean-Luc Picard once said, "Don't confuse style with intent." :) But yeah, good response, Em. I tried to avoid either/or type analysis myself, but that seems not to have registered. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 23:04:11

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- * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part; even so, I wrote in a general, indirect manner to avoid any sense of personal slight, which would be pointless, really. Re-read my response and note its generality and lack of personal directedness. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling, especially the presumed personal elements which were not there in the original. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. At any rate, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's :) -Z	+ * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part; even so, I wrote in a general, indirect manner to avoid any sense of personal slight, which would be pointless, really. Re-read my response and note its generality and lack of personal directedness. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling, especially the presumed personal elements which were not there in the original. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. Although I have met my fair share of naive Nietzsche enthusiasts who, after reading TSZ, think themselves set apart from the herd without even knowing what that means. At any rate, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's :) -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 22:52:56

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- * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. Also, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's. -Z	+ * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part; even so, I wrote in a general, indirect manner to avoid any sense of personal slight, which would be pointless, really. Re-read my response and note its generality and lack of personal directedness. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling, especially the presumed personal elements which were not there in the original. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. At any rate, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's :) -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 22:48:26

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- * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. -Z	+ * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. Also, my comments weren't directed at you, personally. I was extrapolating from an imagined, generic bookseller across from the new Mishka's. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 22:43:15

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	+ * Adopting a critical response doesn't entail condescension. As Jean-Luc Picard once said, "Don't confuse style with intent." :) But yeah, good response, Em. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-18 22:38:41

re S

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	+ * Tone is a hard thing to gauge online. You assume too much if you think I'm passionate or easily offended--on this issue I've been consistently evenhanded, with the exception of a tinge of sarcasm in response to your post, but that was only in reaction to what seemed to me a rather shallow, uncritical perspective on your part. Maybe I misread you, but I certainty never felt offended, and I found your response puzzling. As for being pretentious about reading F. N. or Aristotle, perhaps you're confusing sound comparative judgment and criticism with arrogance? It's an easy thing to do. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

BrandonBarrette — 2009-08-15 23:42:44

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	+ ------ + ''2009-08-16 00:42:44'' [[nbsp]] Definitely not my favorite coffee place in town. I ordered a latte and it tasted like crap. There was no coffee flavor to it. Either a lack of the correct number of espresso shots to milk or just weak coffee, who knows. And the place was loud with most of the chatter coming from employees behind the counter. --["Users/BrandonBarrette"]

Mishka's Cafe

Darren22 — 2009-08-15 23:12:40

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	+ ------ + ''2009-08-16 00:12:40'' [[nbsp]] Definitely not a favorite of mine. The atmosphere is unwelcoming in my opinion, and the last time I went there, I was served promptly in a manner that seemed like they just wanted me away. Very representative of Davis coming from a former Davis resident of nearly 30 years. --["Users/Darren22"]

Mishka's Cafe

JasonAller — 2009-08-13 18:08:36

attribution

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- * (In response to TheRightThinker’s post) I have spoken to the owner. I have serious doubts about the truthfulness of what he says. –former customer	+ * (In response to TheRightThinker’s post) I have spoken to the owner. I have serious doubts about the truthfulness of what he says. --["Users/Douglas" former customer]

Mishka's Cafe

SunjeetBaadkar — 2009-08-13 00:06:49

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	+ + * Em, excellent reponse without resorting to condescendance. I'm glad to be more informed now because of you. Also, I've been telling others about this new history that I have learned. I, too, hope that both the new Mishka's and the orange trees can co-exist in some manor. I actually would find it pleasant to be drinking a spot of tea with a book under the orange trees. Hopefully, someday. --["Users/SunjeetBaadkar"]

Mishka's Cafe

Douglas — 2009-08-12 23:40:22

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	+ + * (In response to TheRightThinker’s post) I have spoken to the owner. I have serious doubts about the truthfulness of what he says. –former customer +

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em — 2009-08-12 18:07:38

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	+ + *Sunjeet, to answer your original question, I think it's fine for the public to pick the oranges. I've done it multiple times and have never had a problem. The fence is a remnant from when there was a cafe run out of the tankhouse that served alcohol. It is a pity that it's still up, or at least that the gates are closed, as the orange grove could serve as a much needed, shady open space in the downtown area. Your analogy to Central Park is actually quite fitting; back in the 80s, the council approved a development project on what is now the south end of the park (where the farmer's market, fountain, gardens and teen center are). Luckily, it was overturned by a city vote and we now have a larger Central Park instead of a shopping center. Let's hope today's generation can be SO HOT and save our historic orange trees. + + In response to the numerous comments about the value of the trees versus that of a cafe, I believe we are missing the point. Yes, both are valuable in their own ways and which has more value will vary from person to person. But, this does not have to be an either/or choice. We do not have to choose the orange trees over the cafe or the cafe over the orange trees. We can have both. I am in no way against Mishka's Cafe but I am against destroying the last remnants of the original gardens and orchards that surrounded the Hunt Boyer mansion. These 10 orange trees were spared when the rest of Mansion Square was built and there is no reason they should not be spared today. I would love to see the cafe get built, just not at the expense of these defenseless trees, not to mention public open space. As Joe pointed out, there are numerous vacancies in the downtown core, including the former Indyna Bistro directly behind the trees and Bogey's books a mere half a block down E. The cafe does not have to be built on a National Register property. It does not have to remove 10 of our city's oldest trees. It does not have to destroy Davis' agricultural roots. --["Users/em"]

Mishka's Cafe

SunjeetBaadkar — 2009-08-11 18:22:06

Apples, oranges, and coffee...and the power of observation

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	+ * I apologize if I offended you with my question, I truly was speaking out of naivety of their emotional significance to you and everyone else. I only asked because of a conversation I had with a customer in my store about how she used to have dinner with her husband under the trees long ago. It made me wonder why this sort of thing still doesn't occur. Why cage it off like a zoo creature or museum piece? I think people today do not appreciate it because of how it is treated currently instead of knowing how it was treated in the past to ignite the passion that you seem to show. People would most likely care if it was incorporated into something that people actually are a part of. Can you imagine if they caged off parts of Central Park that people used to appreciate because they have some emotional connection to it? Also, I didn't mean to incite any sort of hostility towards booksellers. I do take a slight offense to your comment even though I know you phrased so you would not be accountable for its meaning. And no, I don't drink lattes, nor coffee for that matter (though when I do, it is always black, 1 sugar, no cream). I'm a water drinker, a gallon a day. And maybe some home brewed tea, on occasion. And to answer your first question: I've noticed people tend to avoid classic works of literature because when they mention what they've read to others, they tend to feel pretentious about having read Aristotle or Nietzsche instead of whatever Oprah seems to have gleaned for an hour. Supposedly, that is a bad thing. --["Users/SunjeetBaadkar"]

Mishka's Cafe

EdWins — 2009-08-11 10:36:53

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	+ * "Time-bound trash" is a new one. -["Users/Edwins" ES]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-10 22:23:11

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- * Not that you haven't any point, but it should be noted that just because there isn't a swarm of people around the trees worshiping their everlasting comparative significance doesn't make them worthless. You work at a bookstore so perhaps, if you have some inkling of hierarchical literary value, you've observed how the best, timeless literature is generally overlooked for time-bound trash? Avid Reader's philosophy section, for example, is pitifully understocked and lacks most major works of significance, ancient and modern, and its classics section is even worse. Though can we say such books are any less significant, intrinsically, because no one buys them? Should we not stock them because they'd just collect dust? Maybe this says something about our society's fitness to judge, our local community's as well. I'm not sure myself. Maybe Ortega was much more right about the revolt of the masses than he ever thought possible; maybe we live in a time when even booksellers care little about books and much more about taking breaks sipping badly made lattes. Again, I can't say. -Z	+ * Not that you haven't any point, but it should be noted that just because there isn't a swarm of people around the trees worshiping their everlasting comparative significance doesn't make them worthless. You work at a bookstore so perhaps, if you have some inkling of hierarchical literary value, you've observed how the best, timeless literature is generally overlooked for time-bound trash? Avid Reader's philosophy section, for example, is pitifully understocked and lacks most major works of significance, ancient and modern, and its classics section is even worse. Can we say such books are any less significant, intrinsically, because no one buys them? Should we not stock them because they'd just collect dust? Maybe this says something about our society's fitness to judge, our local community's as well. I'm not sure myself. Maybe Ortega was much more right about the revolt of the masses than he ever thought possible; maybe we live in a time when even booksellers care little about books and much more about taking breaks sipping badly made lattes. Again, I can't say. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-10 22:22:02

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	+ * Not that you haven't any point, but it should be noted that just because there isn't a swarm of people around the trees worshiping their everlasting comparative significance doesn't make them worthless. You work at a bookstore so perhaps, if you have some inkling of hierarchical literary value, you've observed how the best, timeless literature is generally overlooked for time-bound trash? Avid Reader's philosophy section, for example, is pitifully understocked and lacks most major works of significance, ancient and modern, and its classics section is even worse. Though can we say such books are any less significant, intrinsically, because no one buys them? Should we not stock them because they'd just collect dust? Maybe this says something about our society's fitness to judge, our local community's as well. I'm not sure myself. Maybe Ortega was much more right about the revolt of the masses than he ever thought possible; maybe we live in a time when even booksellers care little about books and much more about taking breaks sipping badly made lattes. Again, I can't say. -Z

Mishka's Cafe

SunjeetBaadkar — 2009-08-09 13:41:20

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	+ + * Random question: Do the orange trees provide fruit that the public can consume? Cause having something like this take up space when no one can access it is more like a museum display to me. Doesn't seem very "green" to me in comparison to places like the Tolkien Village. But I speak out of ignorance since I know nothing of the historic value of the trees since I've only lived here for ten years. Also, I have been working across the street from them for over two and I don't seem to ever see anyone outside them trying to get a petition signed or anything like that. Maybe they are here the few hours I don't work. --["Users/SunjeetBaadkar"]

Mishka's Cafe

BrianJKenyon — 2009-08-08 14:39:21

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- *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/--["Users/BrianJKenyon"]	+ *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/ --["Users/BrianJKenyon"]

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BrianJKenyon — 2009-08-08 14:37:05

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- *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for the Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/--["Users/BrianJKenyon"]	+ *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/--["Users/BrianJKenyon"]

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BrianJKenyon — 2009-08-08 14:36:50

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- *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for the Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here ["http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/"]--["Users/BrianJKenyon"]	+ *Fully improve the "Wow" Green Factor of the proposed addition to the already excellent and "easy-on-the-eyes" Varsity Theatre to "100% Green" (simply don't build it) -- Help the developers in their quest for the Green -- sign the SOHOT (Save Our Historic Orange Trees) petition here http://www.petitiononline.com/SOHOT/--["Users/BrianJKenyon"]

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BrianJKenyon — 2009-08-08 14:35:10

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Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:26:15

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- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for myself, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. On the one hand I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, but on the other I can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value of their own, but that value is certainly not uniform. And who knows, maybe the new Mishka's won't have the same appeal as the old; maybe it'll lose its charm. So it’s not a straightforward matter. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for myself, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. On the one hand I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, but on the other I can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value of their own, but that value is certainly not uniform. And who knows, maybe the new Mishka's won't have the same appeal as the old; maybe it'll lose its charm. The least we can say is that it’s not a straightforward matter. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:24:43

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. On the one hand I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, but on the other I can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value of their own, but that value is certainly not uniform. So it’s not a straightforward matter. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for myself, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. On the one hand I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, but on the other I can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value of their own, but that value is certainly not uniform. And who knows, maybe the new Mishka's won't have the same appeal as the old; maybe it'll lose its charm. So it’s not a straightforward matter. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:10:52

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. On the one hand I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, but on the other I can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value of their own, but that value is certainly not uniform. So it’s not a straightforward matter. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:09:19

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:07:18

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another, categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:05:23

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- ----- /!\ Edit conflict! Your version: ----- - * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and whether the trees have value in themselves, and perhaps even symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN - ----- /!\ Edit conflict! Other version: -----
Line 175:	Line 172:
- *(In response to PW's post) And let's get rid of all that useless art, too! Hmm, the trees around town don't exactly do that much, let's put in nice, utilitarian parking lots so people don't have to walk more than fifteen feet in any given day. Oh, it'll be good to have some new space downtown, so that we can finally have some ["Thai 2k" empty] ["Pita Pit" space] for ["Indyna Bistro" new] ["Bogey's Books" businesses] to ["Togo's" move] ["G street Shopping Center" in]. --["Users/JoePomidor"] - ----- /!\ End of edit conflict -----	+ * (In response to PW's post) And let's get rid of all that useless art, too! Hmm, the trees around town don't exactly do that much, let's put in nice, utilitarian parking lots so people don't have to walk more than fifteen feet in any given day. Oh, it'll be good to have some new space downtown, so that we can finally have some ["Thai 2k" empty] ["Pita Pit" space] for ["Indyna Bistro" new] ["Bogey's Books" businesses] to ["Togo's" move] ["G street Shopping Center" in]. --["Users/JoePomidor"]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:04:19

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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	+ ----- /!\ Edit conflict! Your version: ----- + * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and whether the trees have value in themselves, and perhaps even symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN + ----- /!\ Edit conflict! Other version: -----
Line 173:	Line 176:
	+ ----- /!\ End of edit conflict -----

Mishka's Cafe

JoePomidor — 2009-08-08 13:01:16

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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	+ *(In response to PW's post) And let's get rid of all that useless art, too! Hmm, the trees around town don't exactly do that much, let's put in nice, utilitarian parking lots so people don't have to walk more than fifteen feet in any given day. Oh, it'll be good to have some new space downtown, so that we can finally have some ["Thai 2k" empty] ["Pita Pit" space] for ["Indyna Bistro" new] ["Bogey's Books" businesses] to ["Togo's" move] ["G street Shopping Center" in]. --["Users/JoePomidor"]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 13:00:14

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion, especially when it held by someone outside the communal context. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:59:29

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubris behind the multitude opinion that says what is most valuable is what the majority says is most valuable--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:57:24

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since then I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example; and this made me question my original intuition. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:55:59

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I've been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I've had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:55:01

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I settled into a skeptical stance. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:54:17

(quick edit)

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- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, than imagining a comparative net-appreciation of Mishka's. The more I thought about it, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, then make inferences from this to the net-appreciation of Mishka's. I could hold more comparative value, for example, in playing a game of chess and reading a book at Mishka's than another, who may only use Mishka's for an Internet connection. The more I considered such things, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:51:05

(quick edit)

Differences for Mishka's Cafe

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- * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very compared of questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, than imagining a comparative net-appreciation of Mishka's. The more I thought about it, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very comparative questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, than imagining a comparative net-appreciation of Mishka's. The more I thought about it, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 12:50:38

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	+ * I actually empathize with your assessment, on some levels, because I went through a similar deliberative process myself, asking those very compared of questions—though for me I also asked whether I could say my own appreciation of the Mishka's experience could be held up and compared to trees and an historic location, and whether I could generalize from my experience of Mishka's to others' experiences, than imagining a comparative net-appreciation of Mishka's. The more I thought about it, the more difficult it became to conclude one way or another categorically, so I remain skeptical of conclusions that do. That said, I’ve been a regular patron of Mishka's since 2005, yet I had comparatively little experience with the orange trees and the surrounding courtyard. So my initial intuition, given this comparative difference in experience, naturally led me to favor Mishka's over the trees and their surrounding location, as it presently exists. Though since I have taken a few opportunities to spend some time in the location, to look at the trees and appreciate the shaded, bricked courtyard, and to wonder how others feel about the courtyard, and how the trees do not just have value in themselves, but also have symbolic value, value related to certain ways of living and certain types of experiences, value related to preserving the environment against the encroachment of development, for example. After thinking on this matter for awhile, and imagining how the space could be more often appreciated, such as by having local groups meet there on occasion, for philosophic discussion or meditation, or perhaps as a space for small, public musical performances, or whatever, I realized that what we do with a space often depends on our presuppositions about what can be done with it in the first place. So I could not suppose that simply because I do not use the space, that others would do the same. For me, though, it was the idea of symbolic value that became more problematic for deciding one way or another. We cannot underestimate the power of symbolic value for a space, for it can come to represent a mode of being, a way of life that presupposes its own cultivated values, and we cannot underestimate what it means to belittle that symbolic value, for the belittlement may represent a larger, contrary set of values that have forces beyond the contested space. So there are problems with appealing to what could be called 'the tyranny of the majority' (qua Mill) on such matters--the hubristic belief that what the masses say is most valuable makes it so--but there is also on the other side a problem with appealing to an elect minority opinion. Perhaps there is more potential concrete consequence for quality-of-life linked to symbolic value than we might think. Behind a small, seemingly meaningless act can be a mass movement. As for my own position, I haven't drawn any categorical conclusions, because I don’t think I can. So while I don’t think we can say the orange trees are useless, either intrinsically or symbolically, I also can’t say the experiences had in Mishka's are without intrinsic and symbolic value. It’s not a straightforward matter, in either case. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

PeteWillits — 2009-08-08 12:18:49

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- * What have the orange trees ever done for you? How have they improved your life in any way? How have they contributed to the city's property and sales tax coffers, which have a direct impact on the quality of life for the citizens of Davis? Maybe the rest of us actually think there's more "VALUE" in having new commercial space downtown with a new Mishka's rather than having some old useless orange trees. --[Users/PeteWillits pw]	+ * What have the orange trees ever done for you? How have they improved your life in any way? How have they contributed to the city's property and sales tax coffers, which have a direct impact on the quality of life for the citizens of Davis? Maybe the rest of us actually think there's more "VALUE" in having new commercial space downtown with a new Mishka's rather than having some old useless orange trees. --["Users/PeteWillits" pw]

Mishka's Cafe

PeteWillits — 2009-08-08 12:18:01

comment

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	+ * What have the orange trees ever done for you? How have they improved your life in any way? How have they contributed to the city's property and sales tax coffers, which have a direct impact on the quality of life for the citizens of Davis? Maybe the rest of us actually think there's more "VALUE" in having new commercial space downtown with a new Mishka's rather than having some old useless orange trees. --[Users/PeteWillits pw]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 11:29:14

(quick edit)

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- * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded (in a broad sense of the word value). Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN	+ * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded (in a broad sense of the word value). Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial development and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 10:40:09

(quick edit)

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- * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded, in a broad sense of the word value. Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN	+ * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded (in a broad sense of the word value). Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 10:39:31

(quick edit)

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- * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to a cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded, in a broad sense of the word value. Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN	+ * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded, in a broad sense of the word value. Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-08-08 10:39:11

re Right Thinker

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	+ * Comparing the value of trees and historical landmarks to a cafés doesn’t require a formal education, nor is education prerequisite to noticing discrepancies between a planned proposal that suggests one way of treating trees and historical landmarks, and then an approved proposal that makes convenient, self-serving changes, changes that seem more monetary than value minded, in a broad sense of the word value. Having a broad sense of anything these days, however, seems increasingly reliant on some type of liberal education, whether it comes from varied life experience and a natural perspicacity, sage parents or sage books, so it makes perfect sense that in a university town students should bring a formally cultivated sense of value to bear on the issue, a sense of value that at least attempts to transcend matters of commercial gain and leisurely convenience, certain lifestyle appurtenances the educated class, ironically, often take for granted, like sitting in a café with a laptop and cappuccino to study. I’m surprised there aren't more complaints. But maybe it’s because those who are capable of comparing the finer points of value would rather sidestep the issue so they can continue enjoying their cappuccinos with a clean conscience. I know I’ve been tempted. --ZN

Mishka's Cafe

TheRightThinker — 2009-08-06 13:54:07

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2009-08-06 14:54:07'' [[nbsp]] I see all of these reviews and think to myself "Davis is a college town?" How is this so? With so many complainers and people not understanding how a business works. I thought college towns were educated... + + Numerous posts have eluded to how rude the employee's are, and their thoughts about "the Rule". Have any of you actually talked to the owner about your expierences/thoughts? Or just complained, like the rest of america. I'm sure had you done this you would think differently; after speaking with the owner and finding out what a down to earth person he is. + + I am working on the new cafe that will be put in next to the Varsity Theatre. The orange trees will be gone, but you can replant them if you want to pay the $17,000 a tree it costs! Sure go ahead, Blame the owner for not paying the $170,000 to move orange trees! + + Do some research and know what you're talking about before you complain or make outrageous comments. --["Users/TheRightThinker"]

Mishka's Cafe

CarrieBishop — 2009-07-13 12:12:53

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- ''2009-01-24 23:20:35'' [[nbsp]] Since moving to Davis two years ago I have always hated this coffee shop. I loathe when friends suggest to meet here, and each time I am almost always met with frustration in some way or another. Whether it be the annoying staff (sometimes not so much) or the outrageously nazi-esque pricing and measuring of their drinks... The thai iced tea is often spotty, too much ice, and many times watered down to a tasteless waste of $3.65. Worst thai iced in town. The best thai I have had is at ["Thai 2K"] which comes with black pearl and they offer refills for a dollar. - - Well stupidly I decided to stop by this evening for a hot cup of black tea, the girl gave me a weird expression, then I had to speak her language "English Breakfast". English Breakfast IS black tea, and vice versa, purely black tea with no extras. It's like going to a restaurant and ordering a cola, you know what I want, don't ask me to say the brand name. - - Anyhow, they do tea by the size of the cup, I order a medium sized cup for $1.75, I wait, am handed my tea and go to pour my honey when I look down into the cup and notice quite literally a quarter sized sack of tea floating in the cup. I had the nerve to ask the unfortunate behind the counter about this appalling lack of value. Apparently they are only allowed to provide a teaspoon and a half of actual tea. This was stated to me with a air of superiority. She demonstrated by showing me the special spoon. - - The tea was powdered garbage, bland, flavorless and completely unworthy of my currency or the cup that it came in. I would rather drink dusty water. I estimate it was also past it's freshness, reputedly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tea several years]. I decided to inform the girl that ["Common Grounds"] provides teas of all kinds, and you are allowed to choose any size cup for the same price, (gasp even a twenty-four ounce cup? Yes!) and they provide an almost fist full of REAL TEA LEAVES in a large open ended tea bag suspended by a straw. Very clever that. All for the reasonable price of $1.85 (corrected). I still have to say English Breakfast, but it is well worth it. - - Call me crazy, I am a snob, I like tea, and if you cannot peddle herb flavored water without being an idiot and a miser I want nothing to do with you. Good day! - - /end British pomposity --["Users/CarrieBishop"] - - * I find it ironic that you link to the wikipedia page where it clearly tells you that there are many different kinds of black tea, whereas English Breakfast is a '''blend''' of black tea. But I agree that Mishka's has a misplaced air of snobbery since there is nothing snobby about their tea or coffee, it's just average. And by average, I mean poor. I do not doubt that they have the potential to serve good coffee or tea (since it is actually quite easy to do so with a little knowledge and care), then we could at least begrudgingly accept the snobbery. --["Users/CoffeeSnobDavis"] - - * Yes there are blends of black tea with other herbs and spices and other types of tea, like black tea and green tea blends. And yes, English Breakfast is a blend of black teas, only black teas. Hence it is by more generic assumption Black Tea. The problem with this idea of "English Breakfast" is that it was a special blend made by a Scotsman, a long long time ago. The problem with advertising the name of a very specialized blend of tea is that it is in all likelihood no longer the same blend. In fact I wonder sometimes if it is even a blend at all in coffee shops such as this. Based on the lack of flavor and aroma I would estimate it is not authentically English Breakfast but today more of a misnomer. - - Lastly the error in asking for black tea strictly is not mine, but often a tea seller. The lack of understanding that black tea is not a generic reference to a group of teas rather a specific element of each of them shows the lack of knowledge of the contents of the tea. --["Users/CarrieBishop"] - ------

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HansHoglund — 2009-07-12 14:05:04

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	+ ------ + ''2009-07-12 15:05:04'' [[nbsp]] Ok, I like a good cup of coffee, which is available at a handful of cafes in Davis, but Mishkas has the BEST CINNAMON ROLLS. The cinnamon rolls are a perfect balance of moisture and sweetness. Not overly gooey or dry like cardboard, not like eating pure sugar. --["Users/HansHoglund"]

Mishka's Cafe

strawberry — 2009-06-12 13:21:47

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	+ ------ + ''2009-06-12 14:21:47'' [[nbsp]] Packed with eye candy -- I mean, grad students. Employees were friendly and quick. Not so crazy about the drinks here, as I was served a watered down chai that wasn't so... great. Good luck at finding a seat. --["Users/strawberry"]

Mishka's Cafe

Trena — 2009-06-04 14:49:17

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	+ ------ + ''2009-06-04 15:49:17'' [[nbsp]] The best cafe' mocha I've had in a long time. --["Users/Trena"]

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em — 2009-05-28 11:15:27

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- ''2009-05-26 22:12:50'' [[nbsp]] I agree that the orange trees should be saved. There are plenty of vacant storefronts in the downtown core and no need to destroy 10 of Davis' oldest trees, not to mention contributing elements to a National Historic Landmark (the only property in all of Yolo County to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places). --["Users/em"]	+ ''2009-05-26 22:12:50'' [[nbsp]] I agree that the orange trees should be saved. There are plenty of vacant storefronts in the downtown core and no need to destroy 10 of Davis' oldest trees, not to mention contributing elements to a National Historic Landmark. --["Users/em"]

Mishka's Cafe

CovertProfessor — 2009-05-28 08:25:35

link

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- In addition to drinks, Mishka's also has a nice selection of pastries and ["candy" confections] such as croissants, macaroons, baklava, and chocolate truffles. ''When purchasing pastries, inspect carefully to see if they have been sitting out for a long time, as they do get dried out after a while if no one has ordered much lately. If you do receive a dried out or otherwise distasteful pastry, you can take it back (provided you haven't eaten half of it already) and ask for a refund or a different item.'' Many might consider the truffles to be the best in town, better than the ones at ["Ciocolat"], a chocolate-dessert-centered business. The truffles are made by a local outfit called ["Vevey Confections"]. You can also find them at ["Common Grounds"]. They have green tea ice cream. The chicken noodle soup is believed to be Campbell's, although there are some doubt this. Check out the ice cream latte.	+ In addition to drinks, Mishka's also has a nice selection of ["Cookies, Pastries, and Baked Goods" pastries] and ["candy" confections] such as croissants, macaroons, baklava, and chocolate truffles. ''When purchasing pastries, inspect carefully to see if they have been sitting out for a long time, as they do get dried out after a while if no one has ordered much lately. If you do receive a dried out or otherwise distasteful pastry, you can take it back (provided you haven't eaten half of it already) and ask for a refund or a different item.'' Many might consider the truffles to be the best in town, better than the ones at ["Ciocolat"], a chocolate-dessert-centered business. The truffles are made by a local outfit called ["Vevey Confections"]. You can also find them at ["Common Grounds"]. They have green tea ice cream. The chicken noodle soup is believed to be Campbell's, although there are some doubt this. Check out the ice cream latte.

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em — 2009-05-26 21:12:50

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	+ ------ + ''2009-05-26 22:12:50'' [[nbsp]] I agree that the orange trees should be saved. There are plenty of vacant storefronts in the downtown core and no need to destroy 10 of Davis' oldest trees, not to mention contributing elements to a National Historic Landmark (the only property in all of Yolo County to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places). --["Users/em"]

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SunjeetBaadkar — 2009-05-26 17:58:57

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	+ ------ + ''2009-05-26 18:58:57'' [[nbsp]] Would the trees have to be destroyed? Couldn't they be moved? To, oh I don't know, say, the land where Target is planning on being built? --["Users/SunjeetBaadkar"]

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CarrieBishop — 2009-05-26 14:12:23

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	+ ------ + ''2009-05-26 15:12:23'' [[nbsp]] See! Money Grubbing Capitalist Pigs! --["Users/CarrieBishop"]

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RainbowVogt — 2009-05-26 13:05:14

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	+ ------ + ''2009-05-26 14:05:14'' [[nbsp]] Sign a petition to save the orange trees from the Mishka's development: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SOHOT/ --["Users/RainbowVogt"]

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condemned2bfree — 2009-05-22 13:42:16

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	+ * Thanks for the summary! --["Users/condemned2bfree"]

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ZacharyNorwood — 2009-05-22 13:36:48

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	+ * The document states that the new proposed location for Mishka's "would demolish the existing tank house structure and residual orange grove at 604 Second Street to accommodate the construction of a new three-story, approximately 5,000 square foot (sf) commercial building between the Varsity Theatre and the Mansion." --["Users/ZacharyNorwood" ZN]

Mishka's Cafe

DukeMcAdow — 2009-05-22 12:50:53

Comment.

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	+ * She may be referring to construction for Mishka's new location: [http://cityofdavis.org/cdd/MishkaCafe/ ''Mishka's Cafe/Tankhouse Project'' documents]. --["Users/DukeMcAdow"]

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condemned2bfree — 2009-05-22 11:49:55

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	+ * The rest of us would appreciate if you could post the context of your comment, thanks! --["Users/condemned2bfree"]

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RainbowVogt — 2009-05-21 21:33:26

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	+ ------ + ''2009-05-21 22:33:26'' [[nbsp]] How about this rule, Mishka's? + How about refraining from destruction of trees in your tracks, eh? + If you are to have a relationship with the community, that includes the trees, hu-man. + This is to document that there has been a clear public response against the actions of the Davis RDA to approve destruction of historic trees for a building. + We request that you join us in the circle of life and love to support rather than destroy the Davis forest. --["Users/RainbowVogt"]

Mishka's Cafe

Markling — 2009-05-20 11:18:03

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	+ + [http://www.davislifemagazine.com/Content.aspx?m=1/1/2009&cId=2036 Read about] Mishka's Cafe in ["Davis Life Magazine"].

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JoePomidor — 2009-04-27 18:14:47

rm dupe comment

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- ------ - ''2009-04-27 15:40:18'' [[nbsp]] It sucks when you can't get a seat. They should install a WEBCAM so I can know before I go there if there will be seats. --["Users/bukj303"]

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bukj303 — 2009-04-27 14:40:18

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	+ ------ + ''2009-04-27 15:40:18'' [[nbsp]] It sucks when you can't get a seat. They should install a WEBCAM so I can know before I go there if there will be seats. --["Users/bukj303"]

Mishka's Cafe

bukj303 — 2009-04-27 14:40:07

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	+ ------ + ''2009-04-27 15:40:07'' [[nbsp]] It sucks when you can't get a seat. They should install a WEBCAM so I can know before I go there if there will be seats. --["Users/bukj303"]

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KernHaug — 2009-03-12 15:35:59

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	+ + ----I'm fine with the rule, but the "no computer" part is a little outdated since many people use their computers for reading newspapers or non-study books. I have trouble with it because most of what I want to read ''is'' online. I usually just have to grab a newspaper until a "study" spot opens up where I can then open up my computer and get to what I really want to read. I love newspapers, but sometimes I love online articles more. --["Users/KernHaug"]

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DavidRobinson — 2009-03-07 07:38:41

Adding attribution to response comment.

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- Kelly you are fine reading a book or writing in your journal...as long as it does not look like you are studying (ie. textbook) and you don't have a computer you are good to go!	+ Kelly you are fine reading a book or writing in your journal...as long as it does not look like you are studying (ie. textbook) and you don't have a computer you are good to go! --["Users/davisite22"]

Mishka's Cafe

davisite22 — 2009-03-06 23:57:24

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	+ + Kelly you are fine reading a book or writing in your journal...as long as it does not look like you are studying (ie. textbook) and you don't have a computer you are good to go!

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KellyM — 2009-03-03 22:45:23

(quick edit)

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- * Hey davisite22, can you clarify the Rule for me? I asked a question about it earlier, you can see it if you scroll up. "really..." edited the description saying that as long as you aren't using a laptop or "cramming for a midterm" (I don't know how you actually make sure that they are cramming for a midterm), you can sit at one of the Rule tables. Is that true? I can read a book or whatever I want, as long as I'm not using a computer or studying for something? Can I write in my notebook? Can I sketch stuff? I fear sitting at those tables, even though I do not study or do work, because an employee might come up to me and tell me to leave for accidentally breaking the Rule. It says "no reading (except newspapers)", does that mean absolutely no reading except newspapers?	+ * Hey davisite22, can you clarify the Rule for me? I asked a question about it earlier, you can see it if you scroll up. "really..." edited the description saying that as long as you aren't using a laptop or "cramming for a midterm" (I don't know how you actually make sure that they are cramming for a midterm), you can sit at one of the Rule tables. Is that true? I can read a book or whatever I want, as long as I'm not using a computer or studying for something? Can I write in my notebook? Can I sketch stuff? I fear sitting at those tables, even though I do not study or do work, because an employee might come up to me and tell me to leave for accidentally breaking the Rule. It says "no reading (except newspapers)", does that mean absolutely no reading except newspapers? --["Users/KellyM"]

Mishka's Cafe

KellyM — 2009-03-03 22:44:48

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	+ * Hey davisite22, can you clarify the Rule for me? I asked a question about it earlier, you can see it if you scroll up. "really..." edited the description saying that as long as you aren't using a laptop or "cramming for a midterm" (I don't know how you actually make sure that they are cramming for a midterm), you can sit at one of the Rule tables. Is that true? I can read a book or whatever I want, as long as I'm not using a computer or studying for something? Can I write in my notebook? Can I sketch stuff? I fear sitting at those tables, even though I do not study or do work, because an employee might come up to me and tell me to leave for accidentally breaking the Rule. It says "no reading (except newspapers)", does that mean absolutely no reading except newspapers?

Mishka's Cafe

KellyM — 2009-03-03 22:38:11

Attribution

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- As a current Mishka's Barista, I appreciate you defending us "really..." as well as for the confidence booster...I'll be sure to pass the comment along to my co-workers. Also, Mishka's has the best coffee in town, hands down.	+ As a current Mishka's Barista, I appreciate you defending us "really..." as well as for the confidence booster...I'll be sure to pass the comment along to my co-workers. Also, Mishka's has the best coffee in town, hands down. --["Users/davisite22"]

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davisite22 — 2009-03-02 18:46:39

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	+ + As a current Mishka's Barista, I appreciate you defending us "really..." as well as for the confidence booster...I'll be sure to pass the comment along to my co-workers. Also, Mishka's has the best coffee in town, hands down.

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EmilyHughes — 2009-02-28 19:56:55

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	+ * Well...I got the drink to go, walked outside, came back with an almost full drink...I think that deserves some sort of consideration for a refund. I still go there, I just stay clear of the French sodas!! In any case, I'm looking forward to their new location...hopefully it'll be done before I'm out of grad school! ["Users/EmilyHughes"]

Mishka's Cafe

really... — 2009-02-16 22:15:58

People know the truth about the rule!!!

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	+ + Many customers are "flustered" about the rule. The rule prohibits laptops and studying, complete with piles of books, binders and highlighters. It welcomes newspapers, magazines, book-reading, game playing and friendly conversation. Basically if you are hiding in your laptop or are cramming for a midterm, go sit in the back.

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really... — 2009-02-16 22:03:22

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	+ ------ + ''2009-02-16 22:03:22'' [[nbsp]] Man, why does everyone gotta hate on the Mish?? Personally, I think its fab, you know? Sure its a little dingy, but I'd like to see any of YOU start a business with a building like that. And clearly there are enough people that like it that it stays afloat. I think the coffee is delish, and poo poo on you if you want to spend your days arguing the metaphysics of the cappuccino-ness of the cappuccino... I see those baristas sipping on that coffee allll day, no way they would drink it if it was gross. + + And who doesn't love some hotties with their coffee?? I think it should be renamed "Hottie Coffee" if you ask me... shazam! + + --["Users/really..."]

Mishka's Cafe

vlam — 2009-02-10 20:50:46

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	+ ------ + ''2009-02-10 20:50:46'' [[nbsp]] I'm suprised that the health dept. did not shut this place down for these conditions. --["Users/vlam"]

Mishka's Cafe

CoffeeSnobDavis — 2009-02-08 20:01:25

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	+ ------ + ''2009-02-08 20:01:25'' [[nbsp]] I just bought a pound of Mishka's beans, just out of curiosity. I got the medium roast, but they were so unevenly roasted it might as well have been light + medium roast. "Wow, only 11 dollars a pound? That's about 40% less than the good stuff! Sweet, I'll try it." + + I make a press of them and I find absolutely no good qualities in the taste. Carbon, a lot of bitterness from caffeine, generic. The high bitterness is an indication of more caffeine than usual, the beans are also a bit smaller than the usual arabica bean, which leads me to believe these are robusta. If that's not true, then they are just low quality arabica from some undisclosed location. + + On the cappuccino side, they have fancied it up a little since I last tried it. Milk was a thin and a little burnt, foam was still spooned in and actually stirred/whipped (???) with a spoon, espresso came through ok, a little sour and thin. Overall though, I was impressed, much better than last year and actually drinkable. Of course, this may have been a one-off. I'd give it a C. --["Users/CoffeeSnobDavis"]

Mishka's Cafe

CarrieBishop — 2009-01-25 15:42:19

Corrected price and largest cup size, enjoying a 24oz black tea as I write this.

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- The tea was powdered garbage, bland, flavorless and completely unworthy of my currency or the cup that it came in. I would rather drink dusty water. I estimate it was also past it's freshness, reputedly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tea several years]. I decided to inform the girl that ["Common Grounds"] provides teas of all kinds, and you are allowed to choose any size cup for the same price, (gasp even a twenty ounce cup? Yes!) and they provide an almost fist full of REAL TEA LEAVES in a large open ended tea bag suspended by a straw. Very clever that. All for the reasonable price of $1.65 (or thereabouts). I still have to say English Breakfast, but it is well worth it.	+ The tea was powdered garbage, bland, flavorless and completely unworthy of my currency or the cup that it came in. I would rather drink dusty water. I estimate it was also past it's freshness, reputedly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tea several years]. I decided to inform the girl that ["Common Grounds"] provides teas of all kinds, and you are allowed to choose any size cup for the same price, (gasp even a twenty-four ounce cup? Yes!) and they provide an almost fist full of REAL TEA LEAVES in a large open ended tea bag suspended by a straw. Very clever that. All for the reasonable price of $1.85 (corrected). I still have to say English Breakfast, but it is well worth it.

Mishka's Cafe

CarrieBishop — 2009-01-25 11:08:07

Tea tea tea

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	+ + * Yes there are blends of black tea with other herbs and spices and other types of tea, like black tea and green tea blends. And yes, English Breakfast is a blend of black teas, only black teas. Hence it is by more generic assumption Black Tea. The problem with this idea of "English Breakfast" is that it was a special blend made by a Scotsman, a long long time ago. The problem with advertising the name of a very specialized blend of tea is that it is in all likelihood no longer the same blend. In fact I wonder sometimes if it is even a blend at all in coffee shops such as this. Based on the lack of flavor and aroma I would estimate it is not authentically English Breakfast but today more of a misnomer. + + Lastly the error in asking for black tea strictly is not mine, but often a tea seller. The lack of understanding that black tea is not a generic reference to a group of teas rather a specific element of each of them shows the lack of knowledge of the contents of the tea. --["Users/CarrieBishop"]

Mishka's Cafe

CoffeeSnobDavis — 2009-01-25 00:15:52

"good" is totally subjective. Adding more descriptive description.

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- Overall, the café has a good atmosphere.	+ Overall, the café has a warm and earthy atmosphere due to the orange walls, wood furniture, black accents, and soft lights.

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CoffeeSnobDavis — 2009-01-25 00:12:06

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	+ + * I find it ironic that you link to the wikipedia page where it clearly tells you that there are many different kinds of black tea, whereas English Breakfast is a '''blend''' of black tea. But I agree that Mishka's has a misplaced air of snobbery since there is nothing snobby about their tea or coffee, it's just average. And by average, I mean poor. I do not doubt that they have the potential to serve good coffee or tea (since it is actually quite easy to do so with a little knowledge and care), then we could at least begrudgingly accept the snobbery. --["Users/CoffeeSnobDavis"]

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CarrieBishop — 2009-01-24 23:20:35

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	+ ------ + ''2009-01-24 23:20:35'' [[nbsp]] Since moving to Davis two years ago I have always hated this coffee shop. I loathe when friends suggest to meet here, and each time I am almost always met with frustration in some way or another. Whether it be the annoying staff (sometimes not so much) or the outrageously nazi-esque pricing and measuring of their drinks... The thai iced tea is often spotty, too much ice, and many times watered down to a tasteless waste of $3.65. Worst thai iced in town. The best thai I have had is at ["Thai 2K"] which comes with black pearl and they offer refills for a dollar. + + Well stupidly I decided to stop by this evening for a hot cup of black tea, the girl gave me a weird expression, then I had to speak her language "English Breakfast". English Breakfast IS black tea, and vice versa, purely black tea with no extras. It's like going to a restaurant and ordering a cola, you know what I want, don't ask me to say the brand name. + + Anyhow, they do tea by the size of the cup, I order a medium sized cup for $1.75, I wait, am handed my tea and go to pour my honey when I look down into the cup and notice quite literally a quarter sized sack of tea floating in the cup. I had the nerve to ask the unfortunate behind the counter about this appalling lack of value. Apparently they are only allowed to provide a teaspoon and a half of actual tea. This was stated to me with a air of superiority. She demonstrated by showing me the special spoon. + + The tea was powdered garbage, bland, flavorless and completely unworthy of my currency or the cup that it came in. I would rather drink dusty water. I estimate it was also past it's freshness, reputedly [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tea several years]. I decided to inform the girl that ["Common Grounds"] provides teas of all kinds, and you are allowed to choose any size cup for the same price, (gasp even a twenty ounce cup? Yes!) and they provide an almost fist full of REAL TEA LEAVES in a large open ended tea bag suspended by a straw. Very clever that. All for the reasonable price of $1.65 (or thereabouts). I still have to say English Breakfast, but it is well worth it. + + Call me crazy, I am a snob, I like tea, and if you cannot peddle herb flavored water without being an idiot and a miser I want nothing to do with you. Good day! + + /end British pomposity --["Users/CarrieBishop"]

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SunjeetBaadkar — 2009-01-22 19:18:53

Books!

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	+ * I completely agree. As much as I like the idea of The Rule to keep room for non-studying peoples, I am not the kind to read the newspaper for recreation. I like getting a black coffee and being able to read some fiction or non-fiction literature. It is a bit bothersome that I have to do it around the people studying or be outside. Maybe I'll talk to them next time I go by... --["Users/SunjeetBaadkar"]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 18:58:53

(quick edit)

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- Unspoken, unofficial etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that, unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls or quiet conversations that rise to a distracting pitch are, out of politeness, moved outside. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if one wishes to remain mindful of the (unofficial) etiquette adopted by students, the front room or the tables outside are viewed as more appropriate locals for high-volume chatter. This view, it should be noted, is not held by everyone, and although non-students rarely flout Mishka's unstated etiquette, the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated can sometimes lead to unnecessary conflict. So, when frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that their voices carry beyond the narrow radius of their chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is, or ought to be, any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.	+ Unspoken, unofficial etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that, unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls or quiet conversations that rise to a distracting pitch are, out of politeness, moved outside. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if one wishes to remain mindful of the (unofficial) etiquette adopted by students, the front room or the tables outside are viewed as more appropriate locales for high-volume chatter. This view, it should be noted, is not held by everyone, and although non-students rarely flout Mishka's unstated etiquette, the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated can sometimes lead to unnecessary conflict. So, when frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that their voices carry beyond the narrow radius of their chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is, or ought to be, any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 18:47:02

ought, yes--should have caught that

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	+ * I've often wondered this myself--wouldn't reading a book be 'traditional' (in a certain sense--perhaps hearkening back to the French intellectual café scene)? I'd be curious to know how to define traditional by recent history's standards. --["Users/ZacharyNorwood" ZN]

Mishka's Cafe

il — 2009-01-22 16:36:25

"ought" would be more consistent with the tone of this particular entry

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- Unspoken, unofficial etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that, unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls or quiet conversations that rise to a distracting pitch are, out of politeness, moved outside. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if one wishes to remain mindful of the (unofficial) etiquette adopted by students, the front room or the tables outside are viewed as more appropriate locals for high-volume chatter. This view, it should be noted, is not held by everyone, and although non-students rarely flout Mishka's unstated etiquette, the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated can sometimes lead to unnecessary conflict. So, when frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that their voices carry beyond the narrow radius of their chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is, or aught to be, any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.	+ Unspoken, unofficial etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that, unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls or quiet conversations that rise to a distracting pitch are, out of politeness, moved outside. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if one wishes to remain mindful of the (unofficial) etiquette adopted by students, the front room or the tables outside are viewed as more appropriate locals for high-volume chatter. This view, it should be noted, is not held by everyone, and although non-students rarely flout Mishka's unstated etiquette, the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated can sometimes lead to unnecessary conflict. So, when frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that their voices carry beyond the narrow radius of their chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is, or ought to be, any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.

Mishka's Cafe

KellyM — 2009-01-22 16:20:35

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2009-01-22 16:20:35'' [[nbsp]] I can understand why a cafe may want to create something like The Rule (although I don't necessarily agree with it, nor do I believe it ultimately improves business), but I don't know why something meant to preserve the "traditional" behavior at a cafe only includes newspapers as the only valid reading material. Why not all periodicals, like magazines or digests? --["Users/KellyM"]

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 14:22:13

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- Here are some general tips for finding the right time to study at Mishka's: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night. Some find focus impossible when the coffee roaster is running (usually at night), while others welcome a droning background noise to drown out chatter (which is less often a problem at Mishka's, per the etiquette above). If you are more sensitive to noise levels and wouldn't deign to sport an iPod or earplugs, shuffling around until you settle on a more quiet spot can sometimes be difficult, but rest assured, your efforts are not irrational and even acceptable from the vantage of students who care about coffee admixed with studiousness, for those who value a pleasant atmosphere brimming with stimulants over the spartan confines of a library.	+ Here are some general tips for finding the right time to study at Mishka's: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night. Some find focus impossible when the coffee roaster is running (usually at night), while others welcome a droning background noise to drown out chatter (which is less often a problem at Mishka's, per the etiquette above). If you are more sensitive to noise levels and wouldn't deign to use an iPod or earplugs, shuffling around until you settle on a more quiet spot can sometimes be difficult; but rest assured, such efforts are not irrational and even shared by many students and university faculty who prefer cafés over the spartan confines of a library (even libraries these days do not guarantee a studious atmosphere, sadly).

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 14:13:26

(quick edit)

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- Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. Undoubtedly, there are also many non-conscious students, making the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated dynamic and sometimes conflictual). When frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that voices carry beyond the slim radius of chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.	+ Unspoken, unofficial etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that, unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls or quiet conversations that rise to a distracting pitch are, out of politeness, moved outside. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if one wishes to remain mindful of the (unofficial) etiquette adopted by students, the front room or the tables outside are viewed as more appropriate locals for high-volume chatter. This view, it should be noted, is not held by everyone, and although non-students rarely flout Mishka's unstated etiquette, the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated can sometimes lead to unnecessary conflict. So, when frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that their voices carry beyond the narrow radius of their chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is, or aught to be, any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 12:46:48

(quick edit)

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- Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. There are many non-conscious students besides, so the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated is dynamic and sometimes fraught with conflict). When frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that voices carry beyond the slim radius of chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.	+ Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. Undoubtedly, there are also many non-conscious students, making the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated dynamic and sometimes conflictual). When frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that voices carry beyond the slim radius of chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 12:44:26

(quick edit)

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- Here are some general tips for finding the right time to study at Mishka's: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night. Some find focus impossible when the coffee roaster is running (usually at night), while others welcome a droning background noise to drown out the noise of chatter (which is less often a problem at Mishka's, per the etiquette above). If you are more sensitive to noise levels and wouldn't deign to sport an iPod or earplugs, shuffling around until you settle on a more quiet spot can sometimes be difficult, but rest assured, your efforts are not irrational and even acceptable from the vantage of students who care about coffee admixed with studiousness, for those who value a pleasant atmosphere brimming with stimulants over the spartan confines of a library.	+ Here are some general tips for finding the right time to study at Mishka's: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night. Some find focus impossible when the coffee roaster is running (usually at night), while others welcome a droning background noise to drown out chatter (which is less often a problem at Mishka's, per the etiquette above). If you are more sensitive to noise levels and wouldn't deign to sport an iPod or earplugs, shuffling around until you settle on a more quiet spot can sometimes be difficult, but rest assured, your efforts are not irrational and even acceptable from the vantage of students who care about coffee admixed with studiousness, for those who value a pleasant atmosphere brimming with stimulants over the spartan confines of a library.

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 12:43:22

(quick edit)

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- Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. There are many non-conscious students besides, so the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated is dynamic and sometimes fraught with conflict).	+ Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. There are many non-conscious students besides, so the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated is dynamic and sometimes fraught with conflict). When frustrated by distracting neighbors who fail to understand that voices carry beyond the slim radius of chairs, do be kind in manner towards them, for they may not understand that there is any etiquette peculiar to Mishka's.

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 12:39:47

(quick edit)

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- Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously, and there are many non-conscious students, to boot).	+ Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously. There are many non-conscious students besides, so the interplay between the initiated and uninitiated is dynamic and sometimes fraught with conflict).

Mishka's Cafe

ZacharyNorwood — 2009-01-22 12:37:31

(quick edit)

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- Studiers: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night, and forget it when they run the coffee roaster (usually at night), although it is interesting to watch.	+ Unspoken etiquette for students: after spending significant time at Mishka's, students develop a tacitly shared 'student-specific' etiquette, an understanding that unlike many cafés where talking without concern for distracting one's neighbors may be winced at but accepted all the same, Mishka's is an exception. Because this venue is primarily frequented by researchers of all sorts, predominantly graduate students, a premium is placed on quiescence for the sake of studious focus. Implicit acceptance of this etiquette is seen whenever cellular calls are taken outside, or when silent conversations that cannot help but rise to a pitch that inhibits concentration for others are, out of politeness, moved outside or diligently self-monitored. Chatting boisterously with a friend is a happy sight at Mishka's, where studiousness more often reigns, but if the local etiquette is to be minded, the front room, the tables outside, or another venue would be more appropriate (for students, that is; though it must be admitted that even non-students rarely flout this etiquette, at least not consciously, and there are many non-conscious students, to boot). + + Here are some general tips for finding the right time to study at Mishka's: it seems to be quieter during the day and gets progressively louder at night. Some find focus impossible when the coffee roaster is running (usually at night), while others welcome a droning background noise to drown out the noise of chatter (which is less often a problem at Mishka's, per the etiquette above). If you are more sensitive to noise levels and wouldn't deign to sport an iPod or earplugs, shuffling around until you settle on a more quiet spot can sometimes be difficult, but rest assured, your efforts are not irrational and even acceptable from the vantage of students who care about coffee admixed with studiousness, for those who value a pleasant atmosphere brimming with stimulants over the spartan confines of a library.

Mishka's Cafe

EdWins — 2009-01-18 23:27:14

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- '''Mishka's Cafe''' ''Coffees, Teas & Roastery'' was founded in 1995 by UC Davis Graduate student Sinisa Novakovic (whose name is pronounced more like "Sin-ee-sha," and who bears more than just a passing resemblance to Morrisey) and his former wife, Bobbi Bohart. It is a ["Cafes" café] founded "in the Old World tradition: a cozy place to meet a friend, converse, read, and relax." Mishka's is home to the only coffee roaster in Davis (though they usually refer to the town, in jest, as ["PRD" The People's Republic of Davis]), and they serve only ["organic"] and ["fair trade"] beans. The bean origins and local roasting aim to create fair-trade ["coffee"] that is considered one of the best in town. The cafe is named after one of Sinisa's cats.	+ '''Mishka's Cafe''' ''Coffees, Teas & Roastery'' was founded in 1995 by UC Davis Graduate student Sinisa Novakovic (whose name is pronounced more like "Sin-ee-sha," and who bears more than just a passing resemblance to Morrissey) and his former wife, Bobbi Bohart. It is a ["Cafes" café] founded "in the Old World tradition: a cozy place to meet a friend, converse, read, and relax." Mishka's is home to the only coffee roaster in Davis (though they usually refer to the town, in jest, as ["PRD" The People's Republic of Davis]), and they serve only ["organic"] and ["fair trade"] beans. The bean origins and local roasting aim to create fair-trade ["coffee"] that is considered one of the best in town. The cafe is named after one of Sinisa's cats.

Mishka's Cafe

JoePomidor — 2008-12-22 13:29:53

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Mishka's Cafe

Douglas — 2008-12-22 12:05:26

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-12-22 12:05:26'' [[nbsp]] I used to like this place. I‘ve gotten drinks there for years and overall it’s been a good place. I’ve seen both good and bad baristas. On Monday I saw another bad one. She, for whatever reason, stuck her finger in her nose when she was preparing my drink. I complained but my complaint was blown off. Disgusting. --["Users/Douglas"]

Mishka's Cafe

EdWins — 2008-12-14 20:46:28

moving 07 reviews

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- - ''2007-03-10 13:31:39'' [[nbsp]] I love the Mishka's vibe and I think their coffee is the best in town. But is it me, or are the drinks never hot enough? --["Users/BriannaBetancourt"] - Actually a common problem with many coffee places is that they make it too hot... Espresso is supposed to be brewed at a particular temperature to maximize flavor and minimize burnt flavor. A certain national chain is the worst of them all and their espresso is always hot (sugar greatly needed). --["Users/WesHardaker"] - ------ - ''2007-03-10 19:11:34'' [[nbsp]] Mishkas always plays the same music. They also have a problem with their WiFi router cutting out all the time. Kill two birds with one stone: play internet radio that relies on the wifi. That way, if the internet goes down or some jerk starts torrenting massive amounts of porn, everyone will know. --["Users/ArlenAbraham"] - ------ - ''2007-04-26 01:09:15'' [[nbsp]] AA wins, I will be sure to tell Sinisa about that as it's a good idea =D --["Users/StevenDaubert"] - ------ - ''2007-05-14 22:16:00'' [[nbsp]] As a former employee I second the prior claim of the filthy mats, the old ice and the ice scoop container that gets filled algae - There is a distinctive difference between being “business minded” and being a cutthroat penny- pincher. - The bathroom and mop room have COCKROACHES that the owner dismisses as “water bugs” the cakes at the top of the case sit in their for weeks. - The floors behind the counter are filthy; at the end of a shift my ankles would be black form the filth below the counter. - The place is just waiting for a sexual harassment suit, the owner left his wife for one of his 20 something employees. - in the mornings the milk sits out for hours, - --["Users/achilipepper"] - ------ - ''2007-05-14 22:16:14'' [[nbsp]] and sinisa is too cheap to buy temperature gauges so watch out for burnt milk! - Every evening the scones and croissants are laid on metal sheets in office in racks, - NOT COVERED cockroaches enjoy them at night. - The owner doesn't supply enough glasses, sometimes when busy the glasses reused WITHOUT going through the sanitizer. - Yeah it may be “free trade coffee” but what is more immoral than these conditions? - --["Users/achilipepper"] - ------ - ''2007-05-15 02:49:12'' [[nbsp]] achilipepper's exposé makes me sad. A dingy cafe doesn't bother me, but the idea that the food I ingest there is almost penicillin makes queasy. Between this and the departed Roma, it's getting hard to even want to support local coffee shops. --["Users/JesseSingh"] - ------ - ''2007-05-16 23:26:15'' [[nbsp]] Despite all its apparent flaws, I honestly will still go to Mishka's. There may be roaches on the food that I don't eat, burnt milk for the mochas I rarely drink, but honestly, it will still have tables open to Eleven on the clock. I think that this expose should be a chance for greater communication, leading to solutions and thusly a better coffee shop for the community. So suchly, does anyone want to try to talk to the owner? maybe ask him for his input on the situation? --["Users/DavidPoole"] - ------ - ''2007-05-20 14:49:24'' [[nbsp]] I have BIG issues with this whole "rule" BS about not being able to use the front tables for studying. Since when should coffee shops dictate what people in their coffee shop do?! I'm guessing the "rule" was instituted because someone wanted to bitch about all the students everywhere - I doubt that those STUDENTS would complain about people CHATTING. We're paying customers, too. CHATTERS can go to the Starbucks in downtown Davis with only ONE outlet. I resent the fact that I have to take my business elsewhere because the 4+ EMPTY tables in the front are reserved for NON-students, which I have had to do when the place is full. That's obnoxious to me. --["Users/joeistheish"] - * Even though I go to Mishka's fairly regularly to study, I can see the owner's point in regards to The Rule. Sure, I get frustrated when every other table is full, forcing me to go to any one of the few other cafes in Davis (I mean, other than Mishka's, there's only Seattle's Best, two Starbucks, Crepeville, two Peet's, Chamonix, Ciocolat, Common Grounds, Delta of Venus...). But really I'm more frustrated with the moochers who buy one drink and "nurture" it for four hours while using the free internet. That's the reason it stays full, not "The Rule". I personally would rather have the option of sitting at one of those tables reading a newspaper whilst waiting for a studying-table to open up. Maybe once in the past 3 years have I actually had to go home because nobody was giving up the goods. Honestly, I think complaining about people chatting in cafes is a wakeup call, my friend. It's a social spot, not a friggin' library. You've forgotten that there's a customer base who don't see cafes as study spots. And those people also tend to be more loyal to a cafe. Look at Java California, John sold that because he wasn't making enough money. I think he was a little too liberal with the amenities, personally, and that did him in in the end (He did send notices out warning people he may have to add his own "rules"). All that said, I have also seen The Rule enforced in silly situations. Like it being less than 30 minutes to closing. Maybe he should time that shit like the "Diamond Lane" or something..--["Users/JesseSingh"] - - - * A few things to note. Firstly said front tables are not reserved for non-students, they are reserved for people who are using the cafe to meet, read a paper, and chat, generally things you used to do in a cafe before wireless Internet and away from college towns. I as a student have never had a problem in this cafe, the rule isn't directed against students, it is trying to create a compromise to ensure there are tables for all members of the community. Many of the folk sitting there with their wifi laptops are not students, though I may not be the best judge, there are times when it seems there are no students present at most cafes, yet still people are there with wi-fi working on something or the other. As far as the chatting folk. You seem to say that students would not complain about people chatting in the cafes, yet you seem to be doing that by your choice in formatting. I am assuming you are a student. Generally I go to a cafe for the business they offer, not a free wi-fi connection, not a table inside (it is really nice out actually), not to study, but to get a nice cup of coffee, or tea (I recommend the 'tea of inquiry'). If you really wish to have a wi-fi connection and some water, to study and the like, why not stay at home? If you wanted it to be quiet, there are several nice places to study around the campus, most with internet and power. ~["Users/DavePoole"] (I feel trolled) - - Funny, I didn't expect such a response. I will digress to an EXTENT, and accept the fact that the coffee shop may have issues with the SQUATTERS that buy a $1.75 tea and then KICK IT for hours and hours, using the "free internet". While I'm not condoning that, I'm also sure that most coffee shops don't get the majority of their revenue in the evenings ANYWAYS; it's the morning rushes that keep these places alive and well. Jesse - you make good points, but I shouldn't have to go on a HUNT for an open table at other coffee shops when there are open tables HERE. And DavePoole I'll have to completely disagree with the fact that this is not directed towards studens - it ABSOLUTELY IS!!! If you go to a coffee shop in San Francisco in the middle of the Financial District, you will surely find consultants and other people who may need to use the internet access, and they will sometimes stay there for hours and hours doing what they need to do. I have never, (other than in Davis at Mishka's), seen limitations to the patrons' activity. I lived in Elk Grove before I moved to Davis, and I constantly saw people in the coffee shops for hours and hours - on laptops - and not once did I see that one was "booted" for staying too long. This is only an issue because Davis is, indeed, a college town. Therefore - it IS about the students. I'm not complaining about chatters, either. I'm complaining about "the rule". If there were people chatting, then I would have no issues with them. But there WERENT. THAT'S MY PROBLEM lol. In addition, I moved to Davis as a transfer in the Fall 2007, and still had classes that I was taking in the Sacramento area this past spring. SO - I don't have the option of going onto campus to the oh-so-infamous "24 hour room" at the library. In addition, I don't like to study at home. Believe it or not - I can focus better in an environment of other studious individuals in a coffee shop. And also - I would have LOVED to sit outside (and I actually tried), but my laptop battery wouldn't last long enough. So! That hopeless night at Mishka's, I ended up taking my mint tea and walking back to my car, and driving BACK to my apartment, and studying there. (By the way - I have WIFI at home; I wouldn't make the assumption that the students at Mishka's are taking advantage of the free internet. In fact, I doubt that's the case; AT&T's lowest internet pan is 14.99 and a latte can cost 3 or 4 bucks. I think they're just there because they want to be in a coffee shop to study. PERIOD.) - Joe - - Actually, there have been a lot of news articles about this recently, across the country (do a search on Google and you'll see what I mean). It's a very widespread problem -- that is, how coffee shops can stay in business when people only buy one cup of coffee (or latte or whatever) and then sit all day. Some of them have taken to requiring regular purchases in order to stay afloat financially. So, here, the issue applies to students, because there are a lot of students in Davis, but in Silicon Valley, for example, the issue is people trying to run their "home businesses" out of a coffee shop. (As you say, not necessarily for the free internet, but because they like having other people around when they work). --["Users/CovertProfessor"] - - * Hey Joe -- get a life. You have no "rights" in a coffee shop. Sinisha is the owner, and he makes the rules. You may have "needs" and so do babies -- go complain to your mom. If you want to drink coffee and read a paper (like some do), Mishkas is a great place for it. If you want a library, go to the Davis public library. --["Users/DavidZetland"] - - on a random note Joe, I can assure you that the owner does not and will not care about your plight, the rule was made to combat a verifed problem, end of discussion. If you were to run into him at miskas I'm sure he would happily explain to you why HE chose to run HIS business that way, he will go in depth on why they have the rule --["Users/StevenDaubert"] p.s. Owner was a grad student at UCD before he opened the cafe, I'm sure he can empathize with the student POV... - - - ------ - ''2007-06-24 13:58:24'' [[nbsp]] - - Joe, I think you're being unreasonable. - - Mishka's offers service to the public, but it is not a public service. It is a private business that can, within the constraints of the law, operate as its management sees fit. While I've personally been inconvenienced by the lack of available "laptop-OK" tables, I've also found it possible to actually sit and talk with a friend or colleague at the no-laptops tables when the cafe surely would've otherwise been full if not for The Rules. - - Also, I sometimes consult in San Francisco's financial district, and I almost always tote a laptop around with me. I can assure you that there aren't any cafes in that area where you can sit and work on your laptop for hours on end without making commensurate purchases. The same is true, if to a lesser extent, at other cafes in San Francisco such as the iconic Ritual Roasters cafe. - - "Covert Professor", you might be interested in reading about the Coworking movement: http://coworking.pbwiki.com/ . Basically, it's a great way for work-at-home types to establish intentional workplace communities - similar to cohousing, but for work. It's pretty nifty. - - --["Users/GrahamFreeman"] - ------ - ''2007-06-28 11:45:27'' [[nbsp]] As someone who also used to work at Mishka's & who happily returns whenever I'm in town, I'd like to comment on some of the rumors and factually inaccurate statements (achilipepper: can you spell libel?) made by other people who claim to be former employees. (As a side note, I'd actually like to know under what circumstances they left their employment--how many of them were the rude and incompetent servers that people sometimes complain about here?). Here are some facts. When I worked there, employees who did their jobs well were rewarded. We were paid well above minimum wage (with tips, I often walked away with more than $12 an hour, and this was several years ago--for someone in college, this was a lot of money for relatively easy work in food service) and got regular raises. It's also the case that when I worked there, there was a fairly regular stream of people who were terrible employees--they slacked off as much as possible, and made the rest of us work that much harder. The owner was sometimes blunt, but was never mean to me. I did see him get angry at other employees, but only when they weren’t doing their job (talking to their friends in the kitchen when we had a line of ten customers or standing around doing nothing when the cafe needed to be cleaned). When I was there, health inspectors made regular, unannounced inspections, and the cafe was not cited for violations; to the best of my knowledge, it has never been cited. We were regularly told to keep the place clean: regular & thorough cleaning of all of the cases, tables, counters and floors, including in the kitchen and behind the counter. Of course, some of the above-mentioned employees refused to touch a mop, which made it more difficult. Finally, while I think that this is not the place to discuss anyone's private life, I would like to point out that, as anyone who knows him can tell you, it is absolutely untrue that Sinisa left his wife to have an affair with an employee, and achilipepper's claim that he did makes me question the validity of (and the motive behind) all of his/her comments. --["Users/DavisExile"] - ------ - ''2007-08-04 12:44:37'' [[nbsp]] Mishka's has a great tea selection. They have nice tea-pots too. I think this is the best cafe in Davis for tea-drinkers. The "Prince Vladimir" is nice, especially with an apricot oat cake. I've gotten a lot of work done in Mishka's and I'm glad it exists. --["Users/ChristianAnderson"] - ------ - ''2007-08-18 17:04:16'' [[nbsp]] I really wish they'd clean the light fixtures...gross. --["Users/TeeDoe"] - ------ - ''2007-08-26 14:20:27'' [[nbsp]] I've been a regular at Mishka's for 4 years and have NEVER had a problem with the staff being rude, with a dirty environment (except the bathroom --yuck), roaches, etc. In August the flies drive me crazy, but fortunately they stopped leaving the back door open, which was the flies' main entry point. [They were "face flies," the kind that prefers to buzz around your face (quite annoying). I have left several times because I was being attacked!]. Anyway, I am glad Mishka's is here because there is no other environment in town that approximates it. The rule does have the effect of making me feel unwelcome, though, and I feel bad for the employees when they have to enforce it, even when it's not very busy (they hate asking people to move). I've also seen them tell more non-students to move than students, so at least on the level enforcement the rule isn't restricted to students. - I do think Sinisa should chill with the rules though. I'd rather be required to buy a drink every hour than sit in certain areas of the restaurant. Rules counteract the relaxing appeal of a coffee shop. --["Users/JessicaRabbit"] - ------ - ''2007-08-26 14:49:15'' [[nbsp]] PS If Mishka's accepted credit cards, they would make a lot more $ off of me. If I don't plan ahead, I'm scrounging for change when I get there, and my large soy latte turns into a tea. When I get hungry, I have to go somewhere that takes cards instead of buying a bagel or cinnamon roll there in the cafe. I shouldn't complain, though, because it does save me $ in the long run. --["Users/JessicaRabbit"] - ------ - ''2007-09-04 22:08:25'' [[nbsp]] The baked goods here are quite yummy (hearty, tasty, down-to-earth but not boring), e.g., lemon bars, morning bread, oatmeal-apricot cookies... --["Users/CovertProfessor"] - ------ - ''2007-09-14 11:04:11'' [[nbsp]] I'm incredibly shocked by all the negative attitudes toward people who like to work on their laptops in cafes. I thought this was a college town. Davis is well-known for having the most highly educated population in Northern California, if not the entire state. And what do highly educated people do? Work! And some of us like to work in the company of others like us. Knowledge workers, professors, graduate students--we make this town what it is, like it or not. Most other college towns have a vibrant cafe culture, where people gather, drink coffee, talk, and, yes, WORK. Mishka's is the only place in town that even comes close to the cafe culture I've experienced in other college towns, and still people complain about "lurkers" who "nurse their drinks" and "abuse" the free WiFi. Crazy. --["Users/CynthiaCCC"] - * Cafe Roma use to have that with a fraction of the posing and with fewer of the portable computer brigade, but to each their own. - ------ - ''2007-09-14 22:17:54'' [[nbsp]] I'm guilty of using my laptop at this cafe for long stretches of time. In fact, I'm here right now. I'd like to continue doing so in the future, and so I also am critical of people who just buy one drink and squat at a table for hours. I'd hate for the cafe to have to remove some of these accommodations, raise prices, or even board up because of that. Therefore, I think it's our responsibility to buy more than one drink if you're going to do that. Personally, I think one drink/hour is a fair trade. --["Users/JesseSingh"] - ------ - ''2007-09-16 18:08:43'' [[nbsp]] I generally like Mishka's and go there frequently but it can sometimes be too noisy for studying. I think students don't (just) hang out for the free wireless internet because most (like me) have some sort of internet access at home, and besides, there's free access at the UCD library. I think many students, including me go to mishka's to avoid "working" (i.e., napping, cleaning) at home. The only downside to Mishka's is that it can be very, very noisey. Something else to ponder: I always order drinks to go. I don't do this to save a few cents ... but to save a few "scents." The glassware stinks like breath. I can't stand to drink out of the glass cups. To end on a positive note, as someone here has already said, their white mocha's are delish... --["Users/AnnieSirrah"] - ------ - ''2007-10-12 20:33:51'' [[nbsp]] Oh, how I really WANTED to love Mishka's. I work/study best at coffee shops. Usually in places that are frequented by laptop-users, I'm happy to order a coffee and blend in with the crowd for a few hours. But, here, the word crowd takes on every one of its nuances. I went on an evening during the week, before the start of the Fall quarter, and it was packed! I'd already read about the "Rule," which I think is great, because I don't have to worry about whether or not I'm welcome to study there. I know I can, and I know where. Perfect. So, I barely glanced at the front of the cafe and started searching for a place to sit in the back. All of the tables were occupied, so I had to squeeze in along the back wall. I hated the back wall. I felt like I was sitting in a noisy library. I like noise, but I don't like libraries. I am honestly still trying to sort out what I didn't like so much about the experience, but I didn't like it. The coffee, I thought was REALLY good. A couple of weeks later, I went back. I needed a place to work on a presentation. It was late on a Saturday afternoon. I went there because I didn't know where else to go, and I knew it would be open and I could work there. I had an identical experience as the first time. Great coffee. Crappy atmosphere. I can't blame the establishment, though. In my ideal world they would remove some tables/chairs, but then they couldn't make as much money, so it's a trade-off, I know. I'll be back there because it suits my needs, but I don't like it. --["Users/EvoDiva"] - ------ - ''2007-11-03 14:15:01'' [[nbsp]] A nice alternative to places like Starbucks and Peets. However, I cannot help but feel unwelcome whenever I visit. The place is a bit small, so I would look elsewhere if you need a quiet place to study. --["Users/at86"] - ------ - ''2007-11-29 18:05:50'' [[nbsp]] Probably the noisest coffee house in Davis...unfortunately, it also stays open the latest --["Users/AnnieSirrah"] - * Nope, ["Chamonix"] is open till midnight, but is much smaller. - - ------ - Mishka's is hands-down my favorite cafe in Davis. The quality of the drinks, the music choices, the multiple AC outlets and (in my experience) the quick and courteous staff make Mishka's a pleasant and welcoming place to chat with friends or to catch up on email. Where else can one feel so good about steeping one's self in liquid culture while avoiding the corporate alternatives? --["Users/DrandyJones"]

Mishka's Cafe

EdWins — 2008-12-14 20:45:51

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	+ * ["Mishka's Cafe/2007 Reviews" Reviews from 2007]