Recent Changes for "Moller International" - Davis Wiki

Moller International

CovertProfessor — 2013-02-06 13:43:24

enterprise art

Differences for Moller International

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	+ + == 2013 == + + * [http://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/moller-signs-agreement-to-advance-skycar-development/ Moller signs agreement to advance Skycar development]

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2012-09-13 04:51:01

2012 update to comment

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	+ '''Sept 2012 - no M200Gs, or anything else for that matter, have been built as of this date.''' +

Moller International

Assalon5 — 2012-06-28 08:17:06

Addition to keep it alive, williams wasp...

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	+ ------ + 2012-06-27 11:15:30 The engine design is not real, never been produced. Why not change it out for turbos? Why does the Williams wasp fly so well and stable but something with 4x the engines cannot. So now the wasp is in black out. Its over 30 years old and was stable. This can be done, its probably being done. We may find Mr. Moller is a patriot running a black-op. After all there has to be some reason for this. --["Users/Assalon5"]

Moller International

PeteB — 2012-04-02 15:04:56

research turned up no such VILE group---felix please stop

Differences for Moller International

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- * Sept 1: A splinter user group is formed called VILE, for Volantor Investors Lose Everything. No cost to join. - Same benefits as SASPAC.

Moller International

TheDrDonna — 2012-04-02 14:42:36

Differences for Moller International

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- [[Image(Moller_M200X.JPG, thumbnail, "The M200X without it's canopy and some aerobot mock-ups in the background")]]	+ [[Image(Moller_M200X.JPG, thumbnail, "The M200X without its canopy and some aerobot mock-ups in the background")]]
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- * [http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1361705 Davis inventor says 'Avatar' gets skycars right] ... as if they needed Moller to valildate the CGI flying machines.	+ * [http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1361705 Davis inventor says 'Avatar' gets skycars right] ... as if they needed Moller to validate the CGI flying machines.
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- * August 10 Via the Moller newletter, Moller announces a new enthusiast group “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC you can join for only $5,000. Looks like he has dreamed up another way to collect "deposits" on aircraft without having to worry about people wanting their money back when Moller doesn't deliver. This is the notice, as conveyed by a poster on the Yahoo Moller stock [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?bn=42835&tid=6068&mid=6068 message board ] on August 10. - SASPAC MemberMoller International is undertaking a campaign to work with sponsors who have an interest in participating in this event. If you own, work for, or work with a company that could benefit from significant international press exposure, please contact our marketing director, Mr. Jah Mackay at (925) 698 6525 to discuss various possibilities. Individuals can also participate in a unique way in this event by joining the newly formed “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC. As a member of SASPAC, you will receive the following:	+ * August 10 Via the Moller newsletter, Moller announces a new enthusiast group “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC you can join for only $5,000. Looks like he has dreamed up another way to collect "deposits" on aircraft without having to worry about people wanting their money back when Moller doesn't deliver. This is the notice, as conveyed by a poster on the Yahoo Moller stock [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?bn=42835&tid=6068&mid=6068 message board ] on August 10. + SASPAC Member Moller International is undertaking a campaign to work with sponsors who have an interest in participating in this event. If you own, work for, or work with a company that could benefit from significant international press exposure, please contact our marketing director, Mr. Jah Mackay at (925) 698 6525 to discuss various possibilities. Individuals can also participate in a unique way in this event by joining the newly formed “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC. As a member of SASPAC, you will receive the following:
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- * Delivery position is transferable/saleable by the member.	+ * Delivery position is transferable/salable by the member.
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- * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors. - - * November 7: Moller has hired a new company controller. He now has 4 or 5 full time administrators, and three or four part-time technical folks. One would usually expect such a company to be technician andf engineer-heavy, but in Moller's case there seems to be about 2 executives for every technical worker. Also Clic Eyewear has been brought on-board as a sponsor, with the usual lack of any meaningful detail.	+ * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistent, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that Moller gives to potential sponsors. + + * November 7: Moller has hired a new company controller. He now has 4 or 5 full time administrators, and three or four part-time technical folks. One would usually expect such a company to be technician and engineer-heavy, but in Moller's case there seems to be about 2 executives for every technical worker. Also Clic Eyewear has been brought on-board as a sponsor, with the usual lack of any meaningful detail.
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- In August of 2009, they announced plans to build one "Firefly" fire rescue vehicle, while admitting they do not have the funds to complete it. All references to the production in 2009 of forty of the M200G ("Neuera" or "Jetson") model have disapeared. Given the Firefly's need for larger, dual rotor engines, it too, will likely never be built, or at leasrt never finished and flown. Here again we see the track-switching tactic used by Moller over the years. Many grand-sounding projects are launched, but none are ever completed.	+ In August of 2009, they announced plans to build one "Firefly" fire rescue vehicle, while admitting they do not have the funds to complete it. All references to the production in 2009 of forty of the M200G ("Neuera" or "Jetson") model have disappeared. Given the Firefly's need for larger, dual rotor engines, it too, will likely never be built, or at least never finished and flown. Here again we see the track-switching tactic used by Moller over the years. Many grand-sounding projects are launched, but none are ever completed.
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- They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption. On April 18, 2011 a Moller [http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/skycar-manufacturer-moller-international-announces-scheduled-test-flight-otcbb-mler-1503369.htm press release] announced a "scheduled test flight" of the M400 on October 11, 2011 to take place in Vacaville, CA. It also states Moller is seeking to sell advertising at this event, which informed sources say will cost "sponsors" (as Moller International now calls them) in the millions of dollars each.	+ They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in its intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption. On April 18, 2011 a Moller [http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/skycar-manufacturer-moller-international-announces-scheduled-test-flight-otcbb-mler-1503369.htm press release] announced a "scheduled test flight" of the M400 on October 11, 2011 to take place in Vacaville, CA. It also states Moller is seeking to sell advertising at this event, which informed sources say will cost "sponsors" (as Moller International now calls them) in the millions of dollars each.
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- In 2010 Moller International offered 6 of it's Neuera saucers and 6 of it's M-150 Skycars for sale. Actually they offered to take deposits. Only the saucer vehicle has actually flown. The M-150 is only a mockup, built for publicity. It has only two nacelles, so it would be rather hard to stabilize in pitch. No model or full size-vehicle of this type has ever been built or flown by Moller. Lacking the engines to actually power either of the vehicles, neither is likely to ever fly. Also, Moller's track record is highly unlikely to attract depositors. - 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have. - - This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorus testing required for a certificated aifcraft.	+ In 2010 Moller International offered 6 of its Neuera saucers and 6 of its M-150 Skycars for sale. Actually they offered to take deposits. Only the saucer vehicle has actually flown. The M-150 is only a mockup, built for publicity. It has only two nacelles, so it would be rather hard to stabilize in pitch. No model or full size-vehicle of this type has ever been built or flown by Moller. Lacking the engines to actually power either of the vehicles, neither is likely to ever fly. Also, Moller's track record is highly unlikely to attract depositors. + 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existent 85 HP electric motor to the two rotor Wankel engine he also doesn't have. + + This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorous testing required for a certificated aircraft.
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- '''See http://www.ripoffreport.com/Questionable-Activities/Moller-International/moller-international-bruce-c-7d7ee.htm for the story of one invester/vehicle depositor who DID want his money back.'''	+ '''See http://www.ripoffreport.com/Questionable-Activities/Moller-International/moller-international-bruce-c-7d7ee.htm for the story of one investor/vehicle depositor who DID want his money back.'''

Moller International

LoriOrf — 2012-04-02 14:30:48

If you're going to be recalcitrant, at least do it correctly :)

Differences for Moller International

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- * Sept 1: A splinter user group is formed called VILE, for Volantor Investors Loose Everything. No cost to join.	+ * Sept 1: A splinter user group is formed called VILE, for Volantor Investors Lose Everything. No cost to join.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-04-02 14:13:40

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 92:	Line 92:
-	+ * Sept 1: A splinter user group is formed called VILE, for Volantor Investors Loose Everything. No cost to join. + Same benefits as SASPAC.

Moller International

PeteB — 2012-04-02 14:11:49

Revert to version 229 (vandalism).

Differences for Moller International

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- Moller International no longer gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. People just don't care anymore. Hi Bruce! Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.
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- * October 1: The M200X goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money. The 45 year old saucer, one of Moller's two vehicles to ever actually fly out of ground effect does not sell when bidding stalls at $20,000.00.	+ * October 1: The M200X goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money. The 35 year old saucer, one of Moller's two vehicles to ever actually fly out of ground effect does not sell when bidding stalls at $20,000.00.
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- ==38 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==
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- '''The public demonstration flight did not take place.''' Moller offered some excuses along the lines of having too many people wanting to come and watch. In fact the aircraft was not ready for flight, because the engines were not finished. The actual status of the on-board electronics is also unclear. Now, some 6 months later, there has been no mention of any new date for such a demonstration.	+ The public demonstration flight did not take place. Moller offered some excuses along the lines of having too many people wanting to come and watch. In fact the aircraft was not ready for flight, because the engines were not finished. The actual status of the on-board electronics is also unclear. Now, some 4 months later, there has been no mention of any new date for such a demonstration.
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- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made '''false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues'''."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."
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- ''2007-03-03 22:25:03'' [[nbsp]] "What is SDI flight systems?" Good question. http://www.sdiflightsystems.com resolves to a dead end. A whois lookup resolves to a John Swope of http://swopedesigns.com, a maker of odd little robots in Sacramento. It's a strange world --["Users/GrumpyoldGeek"]	+ ''2007-03-03 22:25:03'' [[nbsp]] "What is SDI flight systems?" Good question. http://www.sdiflightsystems.com resolves to a placeholder-coming soon message. A whois lookup resolves to a John Swope of http://swopedesigns.com, a maker of odd little robots in Sacramento. It's a strange world --["Users/GrumpyoldGeek"]

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-04-02 14:10:35

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International no longer gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. People just don't care anymore. Hi Bruce! Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.
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- * October 1: The M200X goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money. The 35 year old saucer, one of Moller's two vehicles to ever actually fly out of ground effect does not sell when bidding stalls at $20,000.00.	+ * October 1: The M200X goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money. The 45 year old saucer, one of Moller's two vehicles to ever actually fly out of ground effect does not sell when bidding stalls at $20,000.00.
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- ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==38 Years of Missed Production Dates==
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- The public demonstration flight did not take place. Moller offered some excuses along the lines of having too many people wanting to come and watch. In fact the aircraft was not ready for flight, because the engines were not finished. The actual status of the on-board electronics is also unclear. Now, some 4 months later, there has been no mention of any new date for such a demonstration.	+ '''The public demonstration flight did not take place.''' Moller offered some excuses along the lines of having too many people wanting to come and watch. In fact the aircraft was not ready for flight, because the engines were not finished. The actual status of the on-board electronics is also unclear. Now, some 6 months later, there has been no mention of any new date for such a demonstration.
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- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made '''false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues'''."
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- ''2007-03-03 22:25:03'' [[nbsp]] "What is SDI flight systems?" Good question. http://www.sdiflightsystems.com resolves to a placeholder-coming soon message. A whois lookup resolves to a John Swope of http://swopedesigns.com, a maker of odd little robots in Sacramento. It's a strange world --["Users/GrumpyoldGeek"]	+ ''2007-03-03 22:25:03'' [[nbsp]] "What is SDI flight systems?" Good question. http://www.sdiflightsystems.com resolves to a dead end. A whois lookup resolves to a John Swope of http://swopedesigns.com, a maker of odd little robots in Sacramento. It's a strange world --["Users/GrumpyoldGeek"]

Moller International

TomGarberson — 2012-03-27 11:53:46

Revert to version 227 (Vandalism).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public BS presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].	+ * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].
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- * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely because it doesn't fly. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors.	+ * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors.
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- ==38 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==
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- In early 2012, they said that a deal was to be signed in early January with a Chinese consortium to build a factory, five star hotel and five showroms, all at a complex in China. As of late March, the deal had not materialized. - Again, the "deal" seems to have been quietly dropped, with no ongoing mention of it from the Moller organization. -
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- This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorous testing required for a certificated aifcraft.	+ This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorus testing required for a certificated aifcraft.
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- ''' Mar 2012 - SDI has vanished off the web.'''
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- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is NOT a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-03-27 11:40:40

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 51:	Line 51:
- * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].	+ * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public BS presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].
Line 112:	Line 112:
- * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors.	+ * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely because it doesn't fly. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors.
Line 132:	Line 132:
- ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==38 Years of Missed Production Dates==
Line 162:	Line 162:
	+ In early 2012, they said that a deal was to be signed in early January with a Chinese consortium to build a factory, five star hotel and five showroms, all at a complex in China. As of late March, the deal had not materialized. + Again, the "deal" seems to have been quietly dropped, with no ongoing mention of it from the Moller organization. +
Line 166:	Line 169:
- This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorus testing required for a certificated aifcraft.	+ This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorous testing required for a certificated aifcraft.
Line 244:	Line 247:
	+ ''' Mar 2012 - SDI has vanished off the web.'''
Line 251:	Line 255:
- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is NOT a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.

Moller International

TomGarberson — 2012-03-15 13:47:41

Revert to version 225 (Stop vandalizing the page.).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 28:	Line 28:
- Moller International no longer gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM becuse nobody cares anymore. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.
Line 132:	Line 132:
- ==40 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==
Line 164:	Line 164:
- 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor, drive, and battery system to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have.	+ 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have.
Line 172:	Line 172:
- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made '''false and misleading statements''' about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."
Line 201:	Line 201:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call chumps or "marks" has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. If you just take money, they will fine you about 1 percent of the take. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. We like unsophisticated investors, they are easier to fool. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 205:	Line 205:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose. We won in the sense that the government only fined us about 1% of outr total take from the rubes.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
Line 209:	Line 209:
- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2012) for nineyears. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2010) for seven years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.
Line 244:	Line 244:
- Feb 2102 - Gone, like the investors money.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-03-15 12:46:47

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 28:	Line 28:
- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International no longer gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM becuse nobody cares anymore. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.
Line 132:	Line 132:
- ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==	+ ==40 Years of Missed Production Dates==
Line 164:	Line 164:
- 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have.	+ 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor, drive, and battery system to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have.
Line 172:	Line 172:
- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made '''false and misleading statements''' about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."
Line 201:	Line 201:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call chumps or "marks" has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. If you just take money, they will fine you about 1 percent of the take. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. We like unsophisticated investors, they are easier to fool. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 205:	Line 205:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose. We won in the sense that the government only fined us about 1% of outr total take from the rubes.
Line 209:	Line 209:
- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2010) for seven years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2012) for nineyears. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.
Line 244:	Line 244:
	+ Feb 2102 - Gone, like the investors money.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-02-01 16:00:33

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	+ + The public demonstration flight did not take place. Moller offered some excuses along the lines of having too many people wanting to come and watch. In fact the aircraft was not ready for flight, because the engines were not finished. The actual status of the on-board electronics is also unclear. Now, some 4 months later, there has been no mention of any new date for such a demonstration.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2012-01-26 13:29:01

Differences for Moller International

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- - This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle.	+ 2012 - In early 2012 the Moller site again introduced two new designs the 100 LS and 200 LS. Both are to be electric-gas hybrid vehicles. Moller now claims that these vehicles better suit the present market. One rendering looks very much like the M-150 mockup, with a bit more wing area added. None of these vehicles has been built, and the claimed specifications are at the very least, questionable. He has added a non-existant 85 HP electric motor to the two rotor wankel engine he also doesn't have. + + This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle, then rolls out a different design. Thus nothing is ever finished, much less put through the rigorus testing required for a certificated aifcraft.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-12-14 06:21:54

added new material

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't.	+ * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't. Here is a copy of the sponsor agreement [[File(mollersponsoragreement.pdf)]] and also a "finder's fee" agreement [[File(mollerfinderagreement.pdf)]] that moller gives to potential sponsors.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-12-14 06:18:20

Upload of file mollerfinderagreement.pdf.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-12-14 06:16:27

Upload of file mollersponsoragreement.pdf.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-12-14 06:09:02

format change

Differences for Moller International

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- * November 7: Moller has hired a new company controller. He now has 4 or 5 full time administrators, and three or four part-time technical folks. One would usually expect such a company to be technician andf engineer-heavy, but in Moller's case there seems to be about 2 executives for every technical worker. Also Clic Eyewear has been brought on-board as a sponsor, with the usual lack of any meaningful detail.	+ * November 7: Moller has hired a new company controller. He now has 4 or 5 full time administrators, and three or four part-time technical folks. One would usually expect such a company to be technician andf engineer-heavy, but in Moller's case there seems to be about 2 executives for every technical worker. Also Clic Eyewear has been brought on-board as a sponsor, with the usual lack of any meaningful detail.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2011-11-07 08:22:07

Differences for Moller International

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-	+ * November 7: Moller has hired a new company controller. He now has 4 or 5 full time administrators, and three or four part-time technical folks. One would usually expect such a company to be technician andf engineer-heavy, but in Moller's case there seems to be about 2 executives for every technical worker. Also Clic Eyewear has been brought on-board as a sponsor, with the usual lack of any meaningful detail.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-27 08:59:19

Differences for Moller International

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	+ + * September 27: Strike up one for the naysayers! Moller announced in a [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Moller-International-Inc-pz-4121698530.html?x=0&.v=1 press release] that the October 11 Skycar demo flight has been postponed indefinitely. In reading the press release, he makes it sound like a good thing. The sponsorships mentioned will cost $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 each. The Skycar will be used as collateral if he doesn't fly within a year of the sponsor making the payment. He is certainly consistant, you have to give him that - announce and stall, announce and stall, into the sunset! This may be the end of the line for him, but he will likely announce another date that he will fail to make. He has to do something to bring the stock price up. If he had anything that actually flew, he would fly it. He doesn't, so he won't.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-24 10:30:03

improved wording

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- * August 10 Via the Moller newletter, Moller announces a new enthusiast group “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC you can join for only $5,000. Looks like he has dreamed up another way to collect "deposits" on aircraft without having to worry about people wanting their money back when Moller doesn't deliver. This is the notice, as conveyed by someone on Yahoo Moller stock [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?bn=42835&tid=6068&mid=6068 message board ] on August 10.	+ * August 10 Via the Moller newletter, Moller announces a new enthusiast group “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC you can join for only $5,000. Looks like he has dreamed up another way to collect "deposits" on aircraft without having to worry about people wanting their money back when Moller doesn't deliver. This is the notice, as conveyed by a poster on the Yahoo Moller stock [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?bn=42835&tid=6068&mid=6068 message board ] on August 10.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-24 08:48:53

Differences for Moller International

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- They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption. On April 18, 2011 Moller [http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=ad55bc40-9a36-4f93-95cb-afed02a17fba announced] a "scheduled test flight" of the M400 on October 11, 2011 to take place in Vacaville, CA. The full text of the [http://moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160:skycar-manufacturer-moller-international-announces-scheduled-test-flight-&catid=35:moller-news press release] says Moller is seeking to sell advertising at this event. Informed sources say these "sponsorships" as Moller International now calls them will cost in the millions of dollars each.	+ They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption. On April 18, 2011 a Moller [http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/skycar-manufacturer-moller-international-announces-scheduled-test-flight-otcbb-mler-1503369.htm press release] announced a "scheduled test flight" of the M400 on October 11, 2011 to take place in Vacaville, CA. It also states Moller is seeking to sell advertising at this event, which informed sources say will cost "sponsors" (as Moller International now calls them) in the millions of dollars each.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-24 08:40:18

updated info

Differences for Moller International

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- They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption.	+ They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption. On April 18, 2011 Moller [http://www.aero-news.net/EmailArticle.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=ad55bc40-9a36-4f93-95cb-afed02a17fba announced] a "scheduled test flight" of the M400 on October 11, 2011 to take place in Vacaville, CA. The full text of the [http://moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160:skycar-manufacturer-moller-international-announces-scheduled-test-flight-&catid=35:moller-news press release] says Moller is seeking to sell advertising at this event. Informed sources say these "sponsorships" as Moller International now calls them will cost in the millions of dollars each.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-24 07:59:50

improved wording

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- * September 21: Tension in both the pro-Moller and naysayer camps is so thick you could cut it with a knife! Yesterday marked 3 weeks until D-Day, the October 11 demonstration flight of the Skycar. However, not a word has been uttered by Moller, his talking head Bruce Calkins or the new marketing guy Jah W. Mackey, in well over a month. This is not a good sign for the pro-Moller boys. See the "1998" link above, 3rd entry, for a typical Moller response! When difficult questions arise, the Moller answer is "no answer." Negative comments in the Skycar [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP blog] are being deleted daily, presumably by Mr. Mackey.	+ * September 21: Tension in both the pro-Moller and naysayer camps is so thick you could cut it with a knife! Yesterday marked 3 weeks until D-Day, the October 11 demonstration flight of the Skycar. However, not a word has been uttered by Moller, his talking head Bruce Calkins or the new marketing guy Jah W. Mackey, in well over a month. This is not a good sign for the pro-Moller boys. See the "1998" link above, 3rd entry, for a typical Moller response! When difficult questions arise, the typical Moller answer is "no answer." Negative comments in the Skycar [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP blog] are being deleted daily, presumably by Mr. Mackey.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-23 05:40:35

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- * September 21: Tension in both the pro-Moller and naysayer camps is so high you could cut it with a knife! Yesterday marked 3 weeks until D-Day, the October 11 demonstration flight of the Skycar. However, not a word has been uttered by Moller, his talking head Bruce Calkins or the new marketing guy Jah W. Mackey, in well over a month. This is not a good sign for the pro-Moller boys. See the "1998" link above, 3rd entry, for a typical Moller response! When difficult questions arise, the Moller answer is "no answer." Negative comments in the Skycar [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP blog] are being deleted daily, presumably by Mr. Mackey.	+ * September 21: Tension in both the pro-Moller and naysayer camps is so thick you could cut it with a knife! Yesterday marked 3 weeks until D-Day, the October 11 demonstration flight of the Skycar. However, not a word has been uttered by Moller, his talking head Bruce Calkins or the new marketing guy Jah W. Mackey, in well over a month. This is not a good sign for the pro-Moller boys. See the "1998" link above, 3rd entry, for a typical Moller response! When difficult questions arise, the Moller answer is "no answer." Negative comments in the Skycar [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP blog] are being deleted daily, presumably by Mr. Mackey.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-21 05:32:00

update

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	+ + * September 21: Tension in both the pro-Moller and naysayer camps is so high you could cut it with a knife! Yesterday marked 3 weeks until D-Day, the October 11 demonstration flight of the Skycar. However, not a word has been uttered by Moller, his talking head Bruce Calkins or the new marketing guy Jah W. Mackey, in well over a month. This is not a good sign for the pro-Moller boys. See the "1998" link above, 3rd entry, for a typical Moller response! When difficult questions arise, the Moller answer is "no answer." Negative comments in the Skycar [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP blog] are being deleted daily, presumably by Mr. Mackey.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-16 13:12:54

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- * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would we expect anything else? On September 12, new marketing director Jah Mackey made his (?) premiere appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.	+ * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would we expect anything else? On September 12, new marketing director Jah Mackey made his (?) premiere appearance in all the Moller [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=108 blogs], stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-15 04:48:56

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- * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would we expect anything else? New marketing director Jah Mackey has made an appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.	+ * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would we expect anything else? On September 12, new marketing director Jah Mackey made his (?) premiere appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-14 13:12:19

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- * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would be expect anything else? New marketing director Jah Mackey has made an appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.	+ * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would we expect anything else? New marketing director Jah Mackey has made an appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.

Moller International

Wes-P — 2011-09-14 12:54:47

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2011-09-14 12:54:47'' [[nbsp]] Find it incredible that after all of these years, several other companies have produced proven flight capable autos while Moller still sits idly by with his "flying" Skycar attached to a crane for "Safety reasons" and has never advanced it to any type of true testing or demonstration. --["Users/Wes-P"]

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-14 09:15:39

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	+ + * September 14: Yesterday was 4 weeks until the October 11 demonstration flight when invitations were to be sent out. No one has received one and not one word from Moller International about the status of the Skycar preparations, or anything else for that matter. Why would be expect anything else? New marketing director Jah Mackey has made an appearance in all the Moller blogs, stating "Hello, I'm Jah the new marketing director here at Moller. I have been tasked with providing more expeditious responses to your inquiries, delivering the most accurate, up to date information available to your questions and maintaining all open lines of communication. All I ask in return is your patience and understanding as I try to catch up on the on back-log. Thanks again for your time and consideration." However, in typical Moller style, he has yet to say anything other than this.

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-08 08:57:24

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	+ + * September 7 Moller general manager Bruce Calkins responds to an [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?m=mm&bn=42835&tid=6236&mid=6236&tof=4&frt=1 email] from Yahoo message board poster JEFF asking when invitations to the Skycar demo flight will be mailed to stockholders and if any delays in the demo are expected. Below are the text of JEFF's question and Bruce's response. + + Hi Bruce, + We are nearing the 4 week point, are there invites going out to stock holders as originally planned or will there be a delay? + Everyone wants to know. + JEFF + + His answer>>>>>>>>>>>> + + Hi Jeff. Thanks. We'll be in touch. + + Regards, + Bruce + + (contributor's comment: with only 34 days until demo flight, this sort of answer is doing nothing to calm the fears of Moller investors that the demo will NOT happen) + +

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-07 14:53:12

new information

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	+ * August 10 Via the Moller newletter, Moller announces a new enthusiast group “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC you can join for only $5,000. Looks like he has dreamed up another way to collect "deposits" on aircraft without having to worry about people wanting their money back when Moller doesn't deliver. This is the notice, as conveyed by someone on Yahoo Moller stock [http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_M/threadview?bn=42835&tid=6068&mid=6068 message board ] on August 10. + SASPAC MemberMoller International is undertaking a campaign to work with sponsors who have an interest in participating in this event. If you own, work for, or work with a company that could benefit from significant international press exposure, please contact our marketing director, Mr. Jah Mackay at (925) 698 6525 to discuss various possibilities. Individuals can also participate in a unique way in this event by joining the newly formed “Skycar Advocates Supporting Personal Airborne Commuting” or SASPAC. As a member of SASPAC, you will receive the following: + * Skycar delivery position is reserved in your name + * Delivery position is transferable/saleable by the member. + * Participate in this invitation only event. + * Memorabilia carried on board this first flight. + * Certificate of membership. + * Membership fee can be applied to the purchase of a Skycar or Neuera. + * Access to all future flights of the Skycar or Neuera + The fee to become a SASPAC member is $5,000. If you are interested in joining SASPAC, please contact Jah, or Bruce at (530) 756-5086. +

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-07 08:45:11

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2011-09-07 08:45:11'' [[nbsp]] I first heard of Mr. Moller in the mid-1980s from a colleague at the aerospace company where I work. He was even listed in "Jane's All the World's Aircraft." He was laughable even then. I caught wind of his upcoming (Oct. 11, 2011) "scheduled test flight" and have been following his latest adventure. I can't believe there are people out there still supporting him and the excuses they come up with to justify their support. I have been started updating this Wiki to keep others informed of his lack-of-progress and trying to stay objective, but it is difficult! --["Users/my2cents9"]

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-07 08:35:06

add link to article about engine deal with Madami

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- The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that "an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that Freedom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a venture partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".	+ The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that "an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that Freedom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a venture partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an [http://rotarynews.com/node/view/189 engine deal ] with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-07 05:25:22

spelling correction

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- * September 28: Also in the Neuera Blog, Mr. Calkins ponders the question on everyone's mind: which came first, the Neuera or the fling saucer on the Jetson's cartoon show.	+ * September 28: Also in the Neuera Blog, Mr. Calkins ponders the question on everyone's mind: Which came first, the Neuera or the flying saucer on the Jetson's cartoon show?

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-06 16:22:41

put link to article in magazine name instead of separate link at end

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- * [http://www.wired.com Wired] Magazine admits the unlikeliness of the Moller ever going into production, but also says Moller "will soon be offering demo sessions in Davis, California." [http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/07/landspeeder-lik.html link]	+ * [http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/07/landspeeder-lik/ Wired Magazine] admits the unlikeliness of the Moller ever going into production, but also says Moller "will soon be offering demo sessions in Davis, California."

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-06 16:13:24

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- * October 8: Moller general manager Bruce Calkins makes an announcement in the [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=154:neuera&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP Moller Neuera Blog] that they will begin taking deposits for the Neuera, despite 3 weeks earlier in the same blog giving a litany of reasons why he could not state when production would begin.	+ * October 8: Moller general manager Bruce Calkins makes an announcement in the [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=154:neuera&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP Moller Neuera Blog] that they will begin taking deposits for the Neuera, despite 3 weeks earlier (Sept. 17) in the same blog he gives a litany of reasons why he could not state when production would begin. On the [http://moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=101&Itemid=103 Neuera Q & A page] he states 40 will be sold in 2011. As of September 2011, none appear to have been sold. + * September 28: Also in the Neuera Blog, Mr. Calkins ponders the question on everyone's mind: which came first, the Neuera or the fling saucer on the Jetson's cartoon show. + + ==2011 == + * April 18 [http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Skycar-Manufacturer-Moller-iw-157804100.html?x=0&.v=1 Skycar Manufacturer Moller International Announces Scheduled Test Flight] . Moller states they are looking for advertisers to sponsor the event, and 250 journalists will be at the invitation-only event. + * July 19 [http://moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155:skycar&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP In the Skycar Blog] of this date Moller general manager Bruce Calkins says all stockholders of record will be sent an invitation to the event about 4 weeks before the October 11 event. + * August 16: In response to a question as to how the Skycar was coming along, Mr. Calkins states in the Skycar blog "It is easy to answer a yes or no question, or one that is relatively straightforward. Unfortunately there are many factors to your question and the status of the Skycar and whether or not it will be ready to fly in October. We are working as fast as possible to make this happen, but until we get a bit closer it is very difficult to say yes or no." As of September, hardly a word has been heard from Moller regarding their progress (or lack thereof) towards meeting the 11 October date. An exact location has yet to be announced.
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	+

Moller International

my2cents9 — 2011-09-06 09:36:15

to bring content up to date

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- *	+ * October 8: Moller general manager Bruce Calkins makes an announcement in the [http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=154:neuera&catid=37:blog&Itemid=108#JOSC_TOP Moller Neuera Blog] that they will begin taking deposits for the Neuera, despite 3 weeks earlier in the same blog giving a litany of reasons why he could not state when production would begin. +

Moller International

JoePomidor — 2011-01-27 15:18:16

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- '''Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". - Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?'''	+ ------ + ''2010-09-09 07:54:22'' [[nbsp]] Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud? --["Users/FelixWankel"]

Moller International

JoePomidor — 2011-01-27 15:16:52

Revert to version 195 (I guess i can readd his comment afterward).

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- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis perfessor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a ["Research & Development" local company] devoted to making a flyin' car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alkehol if the vehicle is ever perduced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is perdicted to travel a hundred times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supercrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a ["Research & Development" local company] devoted to making a flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].
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- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Brucey Calkins, brucey@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, idiots, rubes, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the wall; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once. - * I called the receptionist and she said the tours are no longer happening because nobody cares. --["users/jimstewart"]	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once. + * I called the receptionist and she said the tours are no longer happening. --["users/jimstewart"]
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- * Dr. Moller gave an excellent pubic presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].	+ * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].
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- * March 18: Dr. Moller brought an early Skycar model to the ["Hoblit Performing Arts Center"] and gave a [http://www.explorit.org/SkyCar.html talk] there as part of the ["Explorit Science Center"] Science Cafe lecture series. He mentioned a production date of 2012.	+ * March 18: Dr. Moller brought an early Skycar mockup to the ["Hoblit Performing Arts Center"] and gave a [http://www.explorit.org/SkyCar.html talk] there as part of the ["Explorit Science Center"] Science Cafe lecture series. He mentioned a production date of 2012.
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- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Screw Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars of something to reporters. - - In fact, the Ranch company seems to be run through Moller. From their websight, ''If you call to place an order during business hours the person answering the phone will say “Moller International”. Please tell the person who answers that you are calling about almond butter and they will transfer you. If you call after hours, when you hear the prompt “You have reached Moller International…” please dial extension 11. We will return your call ASAP during business hours. If you place an order over the phone pleas also note that the charge on your credit card will read “Moller International”''. The company email is also "quailoaks@Moller.com".	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters. + + In fact, the Ranch company seems to be run through Moller. From their website, ''If you call to place an order during business hours the person answering the phone will say “Moller International”. Please tell the person who answers that you are calling about almond butter and they will transfer you. If you call after hours, when you hear the prompt “You have reached Moller International…” please dial extension 11. We will return your call ASAP during business hours. If you place an order over the phone please also note that the charge on your credit card will read “Moller International”''. The company email is also "quailoaks@Moller.com".
Line 100:	Line 100:
- So far in 2009 there has been no mention of this activity. Early 2011 still nuthin'.	+ So far in 2009 there has been no mention of this activity. It seems they are going to miss another promised date of production.
Line 127:	Line 127:
- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposed engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's im listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."
Line 131:	Line 131:
- "In reality, Moller International had no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has '''no meaningful flight testing''', proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."	+ "In reality, Moller International had virtually no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has '''no meaningful flight testing''', proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s enough money or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 160:	Line 160:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine settlement. You admit guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
Line 175:	Line 175:
- According to the [http://www.uspto.gov United States Patent and Trademark Office], Moller International is the assignee (rights owner) of three dezgn patents and six utility patents. A "design patent" is a patent that is granted on the ornamental design of a functional item that has practical utility. A design patent prevents a competitor from creating an item that looks substantially similar, but does not protect the functionality of the item. A "utility patent" protects the use of or functionality of an invention. They also have several patents that are registered in other countries.	+ According to the [http://www.uspto.gov United States Patent and Trademark Office], Moller International is the assignee (rights owner) of three design patents and six utility patents. A "design patent" is a patent that is granted on the ornamental design of a functional item that has practical utility. A design patent prevents a competitor from creating an item that looks substantially similar, but does not protect the functionality of the item. A "utility patent" protects the use of or functionality of an invention. They also have several patents that are registered in other countries.
Line 208:	Line 208:
- I have yet to find any reference to a "screwed by molller" meeting anywhere..it seems to only appear here. Odd. I'm not toot'ing Mollers horn, he still has to get a sellable product, but it looks like someone is out to bash Moller rather than present the facts. --["Users/EllasBates"]	+ I have yet to find any reference to a "burned by moller" meeting anywhere..it seems to only appear here. Odd. I'm not toot'ing Mollers horn, he still has to get a sellable product, but it looks like someone is out to bash Moller rather than present the facts. --["Users/EllasBates"]
Line 295:	Line 295:
- ------ - ''2010-09-09 07:54:22'' [[nbsp]] Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud? --["Users/FelixWankel"]	+ '''Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". + Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?'''

Moller International

IDoNotExist — 2011-01-27 14:11:49

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- 'Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". - Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?' --["Users/FelixWankel"]	+ ''2010-09-09 07:54:22'' [[nbsp]] Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud? --["Users/FelixWankel"]

Moller International

IDoNotExist — 2011-01-27 14:08:35

Please don't make your comments appear to have been written by me...

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 295:	Line 295:
- '''Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". - Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?'''	+ ------ + 'Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". + Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?' --["Users/FelixWankel"]

Moller International

WillieWankel — 2011-01-27 13:53:05

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 12:	Line 12:
- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a ["Research & Development" local company] devoted to making a flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis perfessor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a ["Research & Development" local company] devoted to making a flyin' car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alkehol if the vehicle is ever perduced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is perdicted to travel a hundred times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supercrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].
Line 28:	Line 28:
- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once. - * I called the receptionist and she said the tours are no longer happening. --["users/jimstewart"]	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Brucey Calkins, brucey@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, idiots, rubes, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the wall; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once. + * I called the receptionist and she said the tours are no longer happening because nobody cares. --["users/jimstewart"]
Line 51:	Line 51:
- * Dr. Moller gave an excellent public presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].	+ * Dr. Moller gave an excellent pubic presentation at the ["Davis Branch Library"].
Line 64:	Line 64:
- * March 18: Dr. Moller brought an early Skycar mockup to the ["Hoblit Performing Arts Center"] and gave a [http://www.explorit.org/SkyCar.html talk] there as part of the ["Explorit Science Center"] Science Cafe lecture series. He mentioned a production date of 2012.	+ * March 18: Dr. Moller brought an early Skycar model to the ["Hoblit Performing Arts Center"] and gave a [http://www.explorit.org/SkyCar.html talk] there as part of the ["Explorit Science Center"] Science Cafe lecture series. He mentioned a production date of 2012.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters. - - In fact, the Ranch company seems to be run through Moller. From their website, ''If you call to place an order during business hours the person answering the phone will say “Moller International”. Please tell the person who answers that you are calling about almond butter and they will transfer you. If you call after hours, when you hear the prompt “You have reached Moller International…” please dial extension 11. We will return your call ASAP during business hours. If you place an order over the phone please also note that the charge on your credit card will read “Moller International”''. The company email is also "quailoaks@Moller.com".	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Screw Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars of something to reporters. + + In fact, the Ranch company seems to be run through Moller. From their websight, ''If you call to place an order during business hours the person answering the phone will say “Moller International”. Please tell the person who answers that you are calling about almond butter and they will transfer you. If you call after hours, when you hear the prompt “You have reached Moller International…” please dial extension 11. We will return your call ASAP during business hours. If you place an order over the phone pleas also note that the charge on your credit card will read “Moller International”''. The company email is also "quailoaks@Moller.com".
Line 100:	Line 100:
- So far in 2009 there has been no mention of this activity. It seems they are going to miss another promised date of production.	+ So far in 2009 there has been no mention of this activity. Early 2011 still nuthin'.
Line 127:	Line 127:
- "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's imminent listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."	+ "The Commission's complaint alleges that Moller International, a California company, and Moller began selling the unregistered shares of stock directly to the public via the Internet, raising approximately $5.1 million from more than 500 investors nationwide. The company was supposed engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile. Moller, age 64, the company's founder, chief executive office and president, made false and misleading statements about the company's im listing on the NYSE and the Nasdaq Stock Market, the projected value of company shares after such listing, and the prospect for Skycar sales and revenue. In September 2001, the company filed a fraudulent registration statement with the Commission that exaggerated the true scope of patents the company held for the Skycar. During the Commission's investigation, the company belatedly cooperated with the staff in an attempt to bring it into compliance with the securities laws and to resolve all outstanding enforcement issues."
Line 131:	Line 131:
- "In reality, Moller International had virtually no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has '''no meaningful flight testing''', proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."	+ "In reality, Moller International had no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has '''no meaningful flight testing''', proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s enough money or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 160:	Line 160:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine settlement. You admit guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
Line 175:	Line 175:
- According to the [http://www.uspto.gov United States Patent and Trademark Office], Moller International is the assignee (rights owner) of three design patents and six utility patents. A "design patent" is a patent that is granted on the ornamental design of a functional item that has practical utility. A design patent prevents a competitor from creating an item that looks substantially similar, but does not protect the functionality of the item. A "utility patent" protects the use of or functionality of an invention. They also have several patents that are registered in other countries.	+ According to the [http://www.uspto.gov United States Patent and Trademark Office], Moller International is the assignee (rights owner) of three dezgn patents and six utility patents. A "design patent" is a patent that is granted on the ornamental design of a functional item that has practical utility. A design patent prevents a competitor from creating an item that looks substantially similar, but does not protect the functionality of the item. A "utility patent" protects the use of or functionality of an invention. They also have several patents that are registered in other countries.
Line 208:	Line 208:
- I have yet to find any reference to a "burned by moller" meeting anywhere..it seems to only appear here. Odd. I'm not toot'ing Mollers horn, he still has to get a sellable product, but it looks like someone is out to bash Moller rather than present the facts. --["Users/EllasBates"]	+ I have yet to find any reference to a "screwed by molller" meeting anywhere..it seems to only appear here. Odd. I'm not toot'ing Mollers horn, he still has to get a sellable product, but it looks like someone is out to bash Moller rather than present the facts. --["Users/EllasBates"]

Moller International

CovertProfessor — 2010-11-08 20:27:05

Revert to version 193 (reverting changes to other people's words).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there is an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past forty years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
Line 87:	Line 87:
- Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his mockup M400. For a while in the eighties, when the aircraft, or concept therefore was called the "Merlin" (another name which was not his to use) he also sold 30 dollar information packages, which incluses a brochure and videotape.	+ Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his mockup M400.
Line 115:	Line 115:
- ==Late 2010==	+
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call rube or fool investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 160:	Line 160:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose. Of course, the fine was just 1% of the take, so it turned out to be much cheaper than the usual finder's fees.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, according to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller refers to were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.''' The above paragraph is typical of the hyperbole Moller has used throughout his entire history. A subtle combination of prevarication and associating himself or his creations with credible and successful ventures.	+ '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, according to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller refers to were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''
Line 198:	Line 198:
- '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site, complete with the tired old picture of a sewage treatment plant from the air. They mistook the settling ponds for helipads. Very wise.'''	+ '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site.'''
Line 206:	Line 206:
- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is not a genius. His M200x has notflown over 20 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.
Line 210:	Line 210:
- Ellas, you obviously have not worked with the guy or know his company. he deserves some bashing - lying for 40 years, making a living off of the hopes of others, whose money he spends with little regard. I attended the last stock meeting and the skycar has changed little in the last three years-is Moller putting you up to this? --["Users/NotImpressed"]	+ Ellas, you obviously have not worked with the guy or know his company. I attended the last stock meeting and the skycar has changed little in the last three years-is Moller putting you up to this? --["Users/NotImpressed"]
Line 233:	Line 233:
- * The updated information is the natural reaction of the wiki; akin to a wiki immune system. When an anonymous person logs on and starts making negative comments on an otherwise inactive page it causes interest to be raised. Among the questions that get asked are "What is this person's agenda?" and "Have they edited anything else, or do they seem to be a single topic user?". Once that happens people put more effort into [http://daviswiki.org/Moller_International?action=info improving] the information on the page. Someone looked up a partial list of the patents, someone else linked those to the USPTO website, I stopped by and took some photos to add color to the page. The fact that you used a sock puppet causes even more attention to be focused on your edits and another group of people are following what is going on because of that. --["Users/JasonAller"] More like "Jason Moller". Pretty transparent. but I'm suprised he can log on and post a reply.	+ * The updated information is the natural reaction of the wiki; akin to a wiki immune system. When an anonymous person logs on and starts making negative comments on an otherwise inactive page it causes interest to be raised. Among the questions that get asked are "What is this person's agenda?" and "Have they edited anything else, or do they seem to be a single topic user?". Once that happens people put more effort into [http://daviswiki.org/Moller_International?action=info improving] the information on the page. Someone looked up a partial list of the patents, someone else linked those to the USPTO website, I stopped by and took some photos to add color to the page. The fact that you used a sock puppet causes even more attention to be focused on your edits and another group of people are following what is going on because of that. --["Users/JasonAller"]

Moller International

WillieWankel — 2010-11-08 19:07:58

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there is an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past forty years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
Line 87:	Line 87:
- Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his mockup M400.	+ Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his mockup M400. For a while in the eighties, when the aircraft, or concept therefore was called the "Merlin" (another name which was not his to use) he also sold 30 dollar information packages, which incluses a brochure and videotape.
Line 115:	Line 115:
-	+ ==Late 2010==
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call rube or fool investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 160:	Line 160:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose. Of course, the fine was just 1% of the take, so it turned out to be much cheaper than the usual finder's fees.
Line 171:	Line 171:
- '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, according to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller refers to were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''	+ '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, according to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller refers to were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.''' The above paragraph is typical of the hyperbole Moller has used throughout his entire history. A subtle combination of prevarication and associating himself or his creations with credible and successful ventures.
Line 198:	Line 198:
- '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site.'''	+ '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site, complete with the tired old picture of a sewage treatment plant from the air. They mistook the settling ponds for helipads. Very wise.'''
Line 206:	Line 206:
- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is not a genius. His M200x has notflown over 20 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.
Line 210:	Line 210:
- Ellas, you obviously have not worked with the guy or know his company. I attended the last stock meeting and the skycar has changed little in the last three years-is Moller putting you up to this? --["Users/NotImpressed"]	+ Ellas, you obviously have not worked with the guy or know his company. he deserves some bashing - lying for 40 years, making a living off of the hopes of others, whose money he spends with little regard. I attended the last stock meeting and the skycar has changed little in the last three years-is Moller putting you up to this? --["Users/NotImpressed"]
Line 233:	Line 233:
- * The updated information is the natural reaction of the wiki; akin to a wiki immune system. When an anonymous person logs on and starts making negative comments on an otherwise inactive page it causes interest to be raised. Among the questions that get asked are "What is this person's agenda?" and "Have they edited anything else, or do they seem to be a single topic user?". Once that happens people put more effort into [http://daviswiki.org/Moller_International?action=info improving] the information on the page. Someone looked up a partial list of the patents, someone else linked those to the USPTO website, I stopped by and took some photos to add color to the page. The fact that you used a sock puppet causes even more attention to be focused on your edits and another group of people are following what is going on because of that. --["Users/JasonAller"]	+ * The updated information is the natural reaction of the wiki; akin to a wiki immune system. When an anonymous person logs on and starts making negative comments on an otherwise inactive page it causes interest to be raised. Among the questions that get asked are "What is this person's agenda?" and "Have they edited anything else, or do they seem to be a single topic user?". Once that happens people put more effort into [http://daviswiki.org/Moller_International?action=info improving] the information on the page. Someone looked up a partial list of the patents, someone else linked those to the USPTO website, I stopped by and took some photos to add color to the page. The fact that you used a sock puppet causes even more attention to be focused on your edits and another group of people are following what is going on because of that. --["Users/JasonAller"] More like "Jason Moller". Pretty transparent. but I'm suprised he can log on and post a reply.

Moller International

MattJurach — 2010-11-02 22:56:23

(quick edit)

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 219:	Line 219:
- XM-4 - Frist version (after turbojet power idea was abandoned) has 25HP Fichtel-Sachs rotary engines, and no stabilization system. Not enough power to fly, amd would have been uncontrollable without artificial stabilization. Second version had 50 HP OMC rotaries, and stabilization. it flew.	+ XM-4 - First version (after turbojet power idea was abandoned) has 25HP Fichtel-Sachs rotary engines, and no stabilization system. Not enough power to fly, amd would have been uncontrollable without artificial stabilization. Second version had 50 HP OMC rotaries, and stabilization. it flew.

Moller International

JabberWokky — 2010-10-27 07:21:01

...but this was okay (my own wording, but same basic idea).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who believe Moller is running a smoke and mirrors scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.

Moller International

JabberWokky — 2010-10-27 07:19:55

Revert to version 189 (Amazingly, still not cool to claim people said things they didn't say.).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who know Moller is a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or rubes has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.

Moller International

WilliamWankel — 2010-10-27 06:37:06

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 83:	Line 83:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who know Moller is a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or rubes has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.

Moller International

WilliamLewis — 2010-10-15 14:13:11

Revert to version 187 (changing quotes is not kosher).

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 156:	Line 156:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call sucker investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did rip off some investors that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back when pigs fly. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question wanted their money back.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.
Line 160:	Line 160:
- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency, especially when you've illegally taken 5.1 millon dollars of other people's money. You accept a fine to settle. Hell, it was less than 1 % of the take - much cheaper than a finder's fee. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
Line 198:	Line 198:
- '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site, now four years old without a sign of life.'''	+ '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site.'''
Line 206:	Line 206:
- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a dope. His M200x has flown over 20 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because the vehicle is likely to try and kill the pilot.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.
Line 234:	Line 234:
- - Jason Aller?

Moller International

WilliamWankel — 2010-10-15 14:10:05

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
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- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call sucker investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did rip off some investors that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back when pigs fly. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question wanted their money back.
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- Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency, especially when you've illegally taken 5.1 millon dollars of other people's money. You accept a fine to settle. Hell, it was less than 1 % of the take - much cheaper than a finder's fee. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
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- '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site.'''	+ '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site, now four years old without a sign of life.'''
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- ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a genius. His M200x has flown over 200 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because he's flying within the city limits of Davis.	+ ''2007-03-27 10:12:16'' [[nbsp]] No idea was ever invented and perfected at the same time. Dr. Moller is a dope. His M200x has flown over 20 flights successfully. Tethers are neccesary because of insurance reasons and because the vehicle is likely to try and kill the pilot.
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	+ + Jason Aller?

Moller International

WilliamWankel — 2010-10-15 12:34:38

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- [[Image(Moller_400_Skycar.JPG, thumbnail, "The current of iteration of the M400 Skycar")]]	+ [[Image(Moller_400_Skycar.JPG, thumbnail, "The current of iteration of the non-flying M400 Skycar")]]
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-
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	+ + ==Track switching== + In 2010 Moller International offered 6 of it's Neuera saucers and 6 of it's M-150 Skycars for sale. Actually they offered to take deposits. Only the saucer vehicle has actually flown. The M-150 is only a mockup, built for publicity. It has only two nacelles, so it would be rather hard to stabilize in pitch. No model or full size-vehicle of this type has ever been built or flown by Moller. Lacking the engines to actually power either of the vehicles, neither is likely to ever fly. Also, Moller's track record is highly unlikely to attract depositors. + + This is a long-standing pattern with Moller, as every year or so he promises to be ready to produce some sort of vehicle.
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	+ + One of Moller's biggest problems is his lack of the fundamentals he would have gotten by taking all of those math and physics courses as an undergrad. The repeated failures of several of his early designs are evidence that he could not or did not do even the simple calculations to determine the required horsepower. He also did not think a stabilization system was necessary. + XM-2 - underpowered and without stabilization - wobbled around in ground effect, but not controllable. + XM-3 - two versions of a disk-fan vehicle. Had 8 go-kart engines, and no mechanism to counter main fan torque. Did not fly in either version. + XM-4 - Frist version (after turbojet power idea was abandoned) has 25HP Fichtel-Sachs rotary engines, and no stabilization system. Not enough power to fly, amd would have been uncontrollable without artificial stabilization. Second version had 50 HP OMC rotaries, and stabilization. it flew. + --["Users/DrMobogo"]

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2010-09-09 13:51:11

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- '''See http://www.ripoffreport.com/Questionable-Activities/Moller-International/moller-international-bruce-c-7d7ee.htm for the story of one invester/vehicle depositor who DID ewant his money back.'''	+ '''See http://www.ripoffreport.com/Questionable-Activities/Moller-International/moller-international-bruce-c-7d7ee.htm for the story of one invester/vehicle depositor who DID want his money back.'''

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2010-09-09 13:49:42

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	+ * Moller says his company is "On track" to build 40 Neuera Ground effect saucers in 2009
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	+ * None of the 40 Neuera saucers is built
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- * [http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1361705 Davis inventor says 'Avatar' gets skycars right]	+ * [http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1361705 Davis inventor says 'Avatar' gets skycars right] ... as if they needed Moller to valildate the CGI flying machines. + *
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- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-seven years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hover-only flights of less than three minutes, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's craft and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
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- "In reality, Moller International had virtually no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has no meaningful flight testing, proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."	+ "In reality, Moller International had virtually no revenue, had never sold a single Skycar, and never came close to meeting the stringent initial listing requirements for either the Nasdaq or the NYSE ... the Skycar was and still is a very early developmental-stage prototype that has '''no meaningful flight testing''', proof of aeronautical feasibility, or proven commercial viability."
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- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. + + '''See http://www.ripoffreport.com/Questionable-Activities/Moller-International/moller-international-bruce-c-7d7ee.htm for the story of one invester/vehicle depositor who DID ewant his money back.''' + + Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
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- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2010) for seven years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2010-09-09 08:59:42

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- They also indicated to their shareholders that the new redundant flight control hardware, which was previously slated to be bench tested in early 2009, and flight tested in an M200G late the same year, was now delayed another year. They now say it will be tested this year, funds permitting. The 200G vehicle in which the flight control system was to be tested never materialized past the fabrication of a composite airframe, actually built in 2009.	+ They also indicated to their shareholders that the new redundant flight control hardware, which was previously slated to be bench tested in early 2009, and flight tested in an M200G late the same year, was now delayed another year. They now say it will be tested this year, funds permitting. The 200G vehicle in which the flight control system was to be tested never got much beyond the fabrication of a composite airframe, actually built in 2009.

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2010-09-09 08:58:05

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- By September of 2010, yet another engine production deal, which was expected to be signed in October or November 2009, had still not materialized.
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- Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". - Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?	+ '''Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". + Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?'''

Moller International

FelixWankel — 2010-09-09 08:54:22

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	+ '''By September 2010, all of the above links to Madami, etc. had gone dead.''' +
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	+ + One year later, in August 2010, no progress had been announced on any of the M200-type vehicles. + + By September of 2010, yet another engine production deal, which was expected to be signed in October or November 2009, had still not materialized. + The company had indicated that it had several possible engine production arrangements lined up in China and Korea, but as of mid-September 2010, nothing had materialized. + + They also indicated to their shareholders that the new redundant flight control hardware, which was previously slated to be bench tested in early 2009, and flight tested in an M200G late the same year, was now delayed another year. They now say it will be tested this year, funds permitting. The 200G vehicle in which the flight control system was to be tested never materialized past the fabrication of a composite airframe, actually built in 2009. + + They state in other communications that the M400 is being re-fitted with nearly complete dual-rotor engines. With these installed, and the new flight control system working, the vehicle will finally be in it's intended configuration. At that time, the company intends to flight test it again, in late 2010 or 2011. This will be the point where it will be seen if the vehicle can meet it rather lofty promised specifications in terms of payload, range, and fuel consumption.
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	+ '''Sept 2010 - the link to SDI still takes you to the same placeholder site.'''
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	+ '''Sept 2010 - no M200G's have been built as of this date.'''
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- Looks like the Milf Farm development deal is not going to happen, so probably no testing. The Skycar is not ready for test anyway. Curious, considering they have been at it for 15 years or so...	+ Looks like the Milk Farm development deal is not going to happen, so probably no testing. The Skycar is not ready for test anyway. Curious, considering they have been at it for 15 years or so...
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	+ Such a decption is mentioned in the SEC complaint. They use the term "false and misleading statements". + Also, how can one take the "fake" picture of the hovering saucer (then the "XM-4") with Pete Levin at the (fake) controls as anything other than fraud?

Moller International

IDoNotExist — 2010-05-18 13:02:15

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2010-05-18 13:02:15'' [[nbsp]] Poor cash flow from a company (or an individual) does not indicate fraud. (In fact, about 9/10 businesses fail, which almost certainly means that they were not able to generate sufficient cash flow to stay in business.) Nor does failure to develop a successful or marketable product. (In biotech, for example, the vast majority of companies never manage to bring a product to market.) To be fraud, there has to be an intentional deception. --["Users/IDoNotExist"]

Moller International

checkplease — 2010-05-18 11:02:41

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2010-05-18 11:02:41'' [[nbsp]] I know the discussion thread is old but wonder if some of the early posters are around and have changed their opinions? Moller's personal bankruptcy and the fact his flying car is still a pipe dream should be proof he has been conducting fraudulent practices the entire time. I'm surprised all his pilfered investors haven't started a class-action lawsuit against him. Or maybe they have? --["Users/checkplease"]

Moller International

JimStewart — 2010-03-16 11:19:24

no more tours

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-	+ * I called the receptionist and she said the tours are no longer happening. --["users/jimstewart"]

Moller International

BruceHansen — 2010-03-16 05:53:30

size heading

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- == Photos ==	+ = Photos =

Moller International

BruceHansen — 2010-03-13 04:07:45

local R & D company link

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- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making a flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a ["Research & Development" local company] devoted to making a flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].

Moller International

MattJurach — 2010-01-28 16:15:19

Moller comments on skycars in Avatar

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	+ == 2010 == + * [http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1361705 Davis inventor says 'Avatar' gets skycars right] +
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	+ +

Moller International

EdWins — 2009-09-09 15:44:34

undoing edit 169, adding on to SD's comment,

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- One of my friends worked for Moller International a handfull of years ago, they are very protective of any trade secrets, especially how they raise money. --["Users/StevenDaubert"]	+ One of my friends worked for Moller International a handfull of years ago, they are very protective of any trade secrets. --["Users/StevenDaubert"]

Moller International

EdWins — 2009-09-09 15:40:20

don't fake and alter the quote, Billy. come on now.

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- '''TWST:''' Did you do that? - - '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some folks come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt, even if you are guilty You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ '''TWST:''' Could you explain that? + + '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.

Moller International

EdWins — 2009-09-09 15:35:35

changing it back to SteveDavison's words (re: tour)

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- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When I went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in something; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When ["Users/SteveDavison" I] went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-09-09 13:39:08

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- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making an affordable flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engine may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller invented the car and motorcycle exhaust called the [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making a flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engines may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller began marketing car and motorcycle exhaust systems called [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].
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- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a techno-scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
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- Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his prototype M400.	+ Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his mockup M400.
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	+ + In August of 2009, they announced plans to build one "Firefly" fire rescue vehicle, while admitting they do not have the funds to complete it. All references to the production in 2009 of forty of the M200G ("Neuera" or "Jetson") model have disapeared. Given the Firefly's need for larger, dual rotor engines, it too, will likely never be built, or at leasrt never finished and flown. Here again we see the track-switching tactic used by Moller over the years. Many grand-sounding projects are launched, but none are ever completed.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-08-28 12:08:38

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- ==Fake Photos== - The often-circulated photo of a sweater-clad gentleman flying the M200 (then called the XM-4) is a fake. It currently is on the home page of the Moller site. The saucer had not flown at the time the picture was taken. The saucer was hoisted up on wires, with Mr Peter Levin on board, who was then an executive at Supertrapp. The wires were retouched out to give the apearance of flight. The vehicle flew very well years later, and the flights were photographed and videotaped, but Moller continues to use the fake photo.
Line 132:	Line 130:
- '''TWST:''' Could you explain that? - - '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some marks come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt, even if you are guilty You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ '''TWST:''' Did you do that? + + '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some folks come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt, even if you are guilty You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-08-28 12:04:20

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 12:	Line 12:
- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making an affordable flying car. The company claims to have succeeded in developing the world's first and only feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engine will burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar will also travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller invented the car and motorcycle exhaust called the [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making an affordable flying car. The company claims to have begun development on a feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engine may be able to burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar is predicted to travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller invented the car and motorcycle exhaust called the [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].
Line 76:	Line 76:
- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he became the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he made himself the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
Line 81:	Line 81:
	+ + ==Fake Photos== + The often-circulated photo of a sweater-clad gentleman flying the M200 (then called the XM-4) is a fake. It currently is on the home page of the Moller site. The saucer had not flown at the time the picture was taken. The saucer was hoisted up on wires, with Mr Peter Levin on board, who was then an executive at Supertrapp. The wires were retouched out to give the apearance of flight. The vehicle flew very well years later, and the flights were photographed and videotaped, but Moller continues to use the fake photo.
Line 131:	Line 134:
- '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some investors come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt. You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.	+ '''Dr. Moller:''' Yes. Any non-public company (which we were early on) that raises money from what we would call angel investors or any investors has to raise it under certain SEC regulations that require you to determine that you are dealing with sophisticated investors. The problem is that sometimes people who want to become investors in your company will exaggerate their own net worth or sophistication, and it’s really up to us to determine whether that’s valid or not. We did have some marks come on board that the SEC argued were not sophisticated. Normally this kind of issue is resolved by providing a rescission agreement so that the investor can get his money back plus 12% interest. We have used this before successfully when any issue came up. The individual we were dealing with within the SEC resisted this approach. We believe he did so knowing that the investors in question did not want their money back and this would have voided his case. Any small company that has faced off against the SEC will tell you that you do not fight this powerful government agency. You accept a fine to settle. You don’t accept guilt, even if you are guilty You’re not claimed to be guilty, but a fine is a way of getting rid of something that you could never win if you really try to defend yourself. If anybody has experienced a fight with the IRS or the SEC, they learn quickly enough that, as a small company, you don’t have the government resources to legally fight it. The few who try always lose.
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- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. It's electrical system is "total loss" meaining that the current engines do not generate electrical power, so the entire aircraft is running on either ground supplied power or on-board batteries. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.
Line 142:	Line 145:
- '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, acxcording to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller brags about were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''	+ '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, according to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller refers to were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-08-19 12:38:30

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 12:	Line 12:
- '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making an affordable flying car. The company claims to have succeeded in developing the world's first and only feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engine will burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol when the vehicle is released (initial MSRP $500,000). The Skycar will also travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller invented the revolutionary car and motorcycle exhaust called the [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].	+ '''Moller International''', founded by UC Davis professor emeritus ["Paul Moller"], is a local company devoted to making an affordable flying car. The company claims to have succeeded in developing the world's first and only feasible, personally affordable, personal vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) vehicle -- the [wiki:WikiPedia:Skycar M400 Skycar]. It is interesting to note that the Skycar's Rotapower engine will burn a variety of fuels, and is expected to be typically fueled with alcohol if the vehicle is ever produced (initial MSRP $1,000,000+). The Skycar will also travel five times faster than most automobiles! The company originally started when Moller invented the car and motorcycle exhaust called the [http://www.supertrapp.com/ SuperTrapp].
Line 28:	Line 28:
- Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When I went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in researching something on the web; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.	+ Moller International gives free public tours the third Thursday of every month from 2:30PM-4:00PM. Just arrive at the front door before 2:30PM. The media contact is Bruce Calkins, bruce@moller.com When I went on the tour, there were about 15 people including families, farmers, etc. The tour wound through every part of the building, there was no "off limits" area. I was impressed by the openness of the company. There are many historical things to see, so the feeling is a bit like visiting a museum. We walked past Paul in a hallway, who was absorbed in something; nobody bothered him. A worthwhile tour to go on, once.
Line 96:	Line 96:
- The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a venture partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".	+ The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that "an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that Freedom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a venture partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".
Line 135:	Line 135:
- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol (read:TOXIC EXHAUST). These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight (read, power) limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. It's electrical system is "total loss" meaining that the current engines do not generate electrical power, so the entire aircraft is running on either ground supplied power or on-board batteries. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol. These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight and power limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. It's electrical system is "total loss" meaining that the current engines do not generate electrical power, so the entire aircraft is running on either ground supplied power or on-board batteries. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.
Line 142:	Line 142:
- '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. This means his "level flight" is one of only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''	+ '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. The actual number of test flights was actually closer to 50, with most conducted without any plan or data acquisition, acxcording to sources close to the Moller operation at that time. Most of the tests were under 60 seconds in duration. This means the "level flights" Moller brags about were only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.'''
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- One of my friends worked for Moller International a handfull of years ago, they are very protective of any trade secrets. --["Users/StevenDaubert"]	+ One of my friends worked for Moller International a handfull of years ago, they are very protective of any trade secrets, especially how they raise money. --["Users/StevenDaubert"]

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-30 12:33:02

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 96:	Line 96:
- The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".	+ The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a venture partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-30 12:32:09

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 96:	Line 96:
- The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no website, but a google lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".	+ The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no active website, http://www.madami.com takes you to an "under construction" placeholder site. Google also lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-30 12:28:42

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 96:	Line 96:
- The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. BY late Juuly, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found.	+ The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. By late July, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found. The site has a posting called " Comments on Rotapower engine" where a lot of old things have been brought together, many with out date info. For example they are still talking about an engine deal with Madami International for use of an engine in an ATV called the X-Model. (Madami has been an importer/distributor of low cost ATV's and the like).http://www.freedom-motors.com/madami.html. This "deal" and the press release cited are now (in 2009) six years old. This is an example of Moller's "soft" misrepresentation of the state of development ans/or the performance of his technologies. Madami has no website, but a google lists http://www.transnationaloutdoorpower.com/. That site seems like a dead end with no info about any type of off-road vehicle, let alone the rotapower-powered "X Model".

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-29 12:48:04

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 82:	Line 82:
- ==35 Years of Production Dates==	+ ==35 Years of Missed Production Dates==

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-29 12:45:47

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 95:	Line 95:
	+ + The most recent missed date is one for an engine production deal. In early 2009, the Rotapower website was stating that an Historical agreement" was about to be reached with PriMon AG, a Swiss firm. BY late Juuly, the notice had quietly been pulled down, and the site was once again indicating that fredom Motors is seeking a venture partner for engine production. In the past, Moller has repeatedly been on the verge of an engine deal, which subsequently never materialized. Given the actual amount of work to be done in both development of the engines and the production processes, it seems unlikely that a vetnure partner will be found.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-17 07:38:41

Differences for Moller International

Deletions are marked with - .	Additions are marked with +.
Line 133:	Line 133:
- The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol (read:TOXIC EXHAUST). The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years.	+ The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol (read:TOXIC EXHAUST). These engines produce about half the horsepower actually called for by a vehicle like the Skycar. The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years. If Moller ever develops the intended engine for the Skycar, then it may be possible to build a real-world version. Due to weight (read, power) limitations, the Skycar has not been outfitted with all of the required instrumentation and equipment required to support communication, navigation, and passenger comfort. It's electrical system is "total loss" meaining that the current engines do not generate electrical power, so the entire aircraft is running on either ground supplied power or on-board batteries. Even with the engines in hand, a great deal of other work remains to be done before the Skycar can be freely flown in US airspace, even as an experimental class aircraft.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-17 07:24:36

Differences for Moller International

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- Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past twenty years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, almost always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase... but have done so to several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he became the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.	+ Over the years there has been an increasing number of people who wonder if Moller is a real business or a scam. He has been two years from releasing a commercial model for the past thirty-five years. Enough people have invested in his concept and become disillusioned to hold informal "Burned by Moller" conventions. The only flights his "400 miles an hour on normal gas" vehicles have ever taken are short hops, always tethered to the ground, and always for groups of shareholders or potential investors. The military has looked into Moller's crafts and declined to invest or purchase due to the inability of Moller to demonstrate any practical level of performance, but have done so with several other "personal flying craft" companies. In recent years, he became the President of [http://www.quailoaksranch.com/ Quail Oaks Ranch], a company that sells Organic Almond Butter. Moller now touts it as a way to live longer, pitching it in a pseudo-scientific slick salesman manner. He often mentions it in public appearances about the Skycar, and sends jars to reporters.
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- Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his prototype M400. The non-functional prototype itself is available for $3.5 million.	+ Other than shares in his company, the only things you have ever been able to purchase from Moller are kitsch-like models, license plate frames, and glossy photos of his prototype M400.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-14 12:23:45

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	+ The SEC did look at the technical performance, or lack of it in Moller's case, because he had misrepresented his company's capabilities, and the capabilities of the aircraft, in order to sell illegal, unregistered stock.
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- Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. This means his "level flight" is one of only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B. The SEC did look at the technical performance, or lack of it in Moller's case, because he had misrepresented his company's capabilities, and the capabilities of the aircraft, in order to sell illegal, unregistered stock.	+ '''Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. This means his "level flight" is one of only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B.''' +

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-07-14 12:21:07

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- [[Image(Moller_530_Series.JPG, thumbnail, "A 530 Series Rotapower(r) Engine")]]	+ [[Image(Moller_530_Series.JPG, thumbnail, "An OMC-based 530 Series Rotapower(r) Engine Block")]]
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- [[Image(Moller_M200X.JPG, thumbnail, "A M200X model without its canopy and some aerobots in the background")]]	+ [[Image(Moller_M200X.JPG, thumbnail, "The M200X without it's canopy and some aerobot mock-ups in the background")]]
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- In both Mollers public comments, and his printed material, there is a consistent pattern of the vehicle in question always being about 4 years away from production, or some form of FAA certification.	+ In both Moller's public comments, and his printed material, there is a consistent pattern of the vehicle in question always being about 4 years away from production, or some form of FAA certification.
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- In the SEC's repost above, they state that "The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile..." The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions.	+ In the SEC's repost above, they state that "The company was supposedly engaged in the development of a revolutionary personal aircraft, dubbed "the Skycar," that would allow a person to travel at speeds over 400 miles-per-hour above roadways for about the same price as a luxury automobile..." + + The Skycar exists and has flown on many occasions, although only unmanned and unloaded, on a safety tether, with single rotor OMC-based engines running on methanol (read:TOXIC EXHAUST). The skycar has not flown now (in 2009) for six years.
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	+ Note - the M200x has only flown on a tether attached to a crane. This means his "level flight" is one of only 20 to 30 feet in length, at less than 5 mph. This doesn't exactly put Moller in the "heady company" of great aircraft like the AV-8B. The SEC did look at the technical performance, or lack of it in Moller's case, because he had misrepresented his company's capabilities, and the capabilities of the aircraft, in order to sell illegal, unregistered stock.

Moller International

JoePomidor — 2009-06-24 12:50:55

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	+
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- This is not for his company, but for him personaly. He listed assets of $46 million, and debts of $6 million. - Moller has been personaly financing the limited on-going activities at Moller International in recent years, due to a lack of investment capital.	+ This is not for his company, but for him personally. He listed assets of $46 million, and debts of $6 million. + Moller has been personally financing the limited on-going activities at Moller International in recent years, due to a lack of investment capital.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-24 12:30:28

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	+ In both Mollers public comments, and his printed material, there is a consistent pattern of the vehicle in question always being about 4 years away from production, or some form of FAA certification.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-24 12:26:32

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- * October 1: An M200x goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money.	+ * October 1: The M200X goes up for sale on [http://cgi.ebay.com/Moller-International-M200x_W0QQitemZ250302131552QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem E-Bay] in order to raise money. The 35 year old saucer, one of Moller's two vehicles to ever actually fly out of ground effect does not sell when bidding stalls at $20,000.00.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-24 12:22:25

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- In May, Paul Moller files for personal Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the Eastern District of the US Bankruptcy Court.	+ In May, Paul Moller filed for personal Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the Eastern District of the US Bankruptcy Court.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-24 12:21:08

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	+ ==Bankruptcy for Paul Moller - is the company far behind?== + In May, Paul Moller files for personal Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the Eastern District of the US Bankruptcy Court. + http://www.sacbee.com/business/story/1962336.html + This is not for his company, but for him personaly. He listed assets of $46 million, and debts of $6 million. + Moller has been personaly financing the limited on-going activities at Moller International in recent years, due to a lack of investment capital. + Given the overall situation, his company may also suffer the same fate. In their last few financial statements, they express doubt that M.I. will be able to continue as a going concern.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-18 11:38:53

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- In June 2007 they indicated in press releases that they were "on track" to build 40 M200G ground-effect vehicles in 2009, and thet they already has several airframes and the design of a new landing gear completed.	+ In July2008 they indicated in press releases that they were "on track" to build 40 M200G ground-effect vehicles in 2009, and that they already has several airframes and the design of a new landing gear completed.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-18 11:35:59

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	+ + In June 2007 they indicated in press releases that they were "on track" to build 40 M200G ground-effect vehicles in 2009, and thet they already has several airframes and the design of a new landing gear completed. + see http://www.moller.com/files/Volantor_Production_On-track.pdf + So far in 2009 there has been no mention of this activity. It seems they are going to miss another promised date of production.

Moller International

JabberWokky — 2009-06-13 10:46:24

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	+ But there have been several personal VTOL craft developed in the latter half of the 20th century by various companies, mostly for military use. Some neat footage exists of the earlier ones, recycled into dozens of History Channel and Military Channel documentaries. Drop the VTOL aspect and thousands of people build single or two person ultralights in their garages and fly them for recreation. --jw

Moller International

MattJurach — 2009-06-12 12:17:53

Hobby R/C != personal VTOL vehicle

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- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++	+ ------
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	+ Yeah, those are pretty cool, but they also weigh a few pounds at most. I think that scaling it up to human transport level, like Moller's trying to do, is something altogether different. -["Users/MattJurach"]

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-11 13:15:54

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- Mollers overweight junk could never fly like this. Getting rid of the ducts and extra body really let a small multi prop (not fan) unit perform.	+ Moller's overweight junk could never fly like this. Getting rid of the ducts and extra body really let a small multi prop (not fan) unit perform.
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- Once again, the world has left the Ol' man way behind.
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- Because theyve got more talent, and they want to succede at flying, not at scamming people.	+ Because they've got more talent, and they want to succede at flying, not at scamming people. + http://ng.uavp.ch/moin - this site covers a number of flyers + http://vimeo.com/4476849 - great video of one multi fan unit in flight.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-11 13:12:50

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	+ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + If you want to see some impressive UAV's, go to these two site - the second one has some video of a unit being flown very aggressively. + Mollers overweight junk could never fly like this. Getting rid of the ducts and extra body really let a small multi prop (not fan) unit perform. + Of course, staying on the ground is what Moller is good at! + Once again, the world has left the Ol' man way behind. + These hobby guys are light years ahead of Dr Mo. + Because theyve got more talent, and they want to succede at flying, not at scamming people.

Moller International

IDoNotExist — 2009-06-05 16:07:31

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2009-06-05 16:07:31'' [[nbsp]] I took the tour at once point. It seemed to me to be a dog and pony show to attract investors. It could have been the day, but when I was there, there were only a few employees in the entire facility, and the company was relying upon contracts to manufacture items for other companies (if I remember correctly) to keep its cash flow positive. They made a big deal on the tour out of a lot of wishful thinking - if only the DOD would fund them to finish the skycar, etc. But they don't exactly have the best (or any?!) track record that I know of of getting anything in the air for more than a very short time. It's too bad, because I used to love reading about the technology that they were inventing, and I wanted to see them succeed and maybe have my own skycar some day. But I really doubt that we will ever see it work somehow... --["Users/IDoNotExist"]

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-05 14:45:59

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	+ Looks like the Milf Farm development deal is not going to happen, so probably no testing. The Skycar is not ready for test anyway. Curious, considering they have been at it for 15 years or so...

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-06-01 15:24:18

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- Not much new - the two likns to PriMon, who are supposedly going to build the rotary engine, are dead.	+ Not much new - the two links to PriMon AG, who are supposedly going to build the rotary engine, are dead.
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- There is a picture of a yong man holding a tired old two rotor short block, claiming 160 HP. As usual, it's not a complete engine, just a block with a starter motor and plugs.	+ There is a picture of a young man holding a two rotor short block, claiming 160 HP. As usual, it's not a complete engine, just a block with a starter motor and plugs.
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	+ ---------------------------------------------------------- + What ever happened to the testing they were going to do at the milk farm? Did that fall through? + ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moller International

TheAmazingLarry — 2009-05-28 12:39:36

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	+ + == 2009 == + * The M200X makes it into a MSNBC article, [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30967909/ Seven real-world adventures in flight], along with other flying oddities like lawnchairs hoisted aloft with helium balloons..

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-05-26 13:01:00

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- There is a picture of a yong man holding a tired old two rotoe short block, claiming 160 HP. As usual, it's not a complete engine, just a block with a starter motor and plugs. - Why don't we ever see a complete engine, running on a test stand or a dyne???	+ There is a picture of a yong man holding a tired old two rotor short block, claiming 160 HP. As usual, it's not a complete engine, just a block with a starter motor and plugs. + Why don't we ever see a complete engine, running on a test stand or a dyno???

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-05-26 12:58:19

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	+ ----------------------------- + Rotapower has a new site up - it can be accessed from Moller's site. + Not much new - the two likns to PriMon, who are supposedly going to build the rotary engine, are dead. + There is another fake hover picture of the small model of the big (M600) design - with no caption to indicate that it is not real. + There is a picture of a yong man holding a tired old two rotoe short block, claiming 160 HP. As usual, it's not a complete engine, just a block with a starter motor and plugs. + Why don't we ever see a complete engine, running on a test stand or a dyne??? + The Intelectual property page is empty (hmm....) + And the "Engine test data" page doesn't really contain any test data. + All in all, a fine example of Moller marketing collateral.

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-05-19 11:06:14

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	+ ----------------------- + Has anybody heard how they are doing on the new M200G - they said they were planning on building 40 in 2009. I haven't seen any mention of it in the press or on the Moller site?

Moller International

Billyknowes — 2009-05-14 12:11:14

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	+ The picture of Peter Levin "flying" the saucer on the website is certainly fake - it was uh, produced several years before the saucer actually flew, and used in various Moller promotional brochures, etc. + Even with a saucer which actually flew a few times, they use the fake shot instead.