Students for Concealed Carry on Campus/Discussion

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This page contains the ongoing discussion on the issue of concealed firearm carry on campus, linked from the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus page.

Please sign your comments. A discussion as controversial as this moves quickly, and it is simple courtesy to allow others, especially non-participants, to follow it.

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2008-08-06 10:43:36   Are there any stories of success about students who defended themselves using their concealed weapon? —JamesSchwab

2008-08-06 11:03:10   I would find Davis to be a much scarier place if I knew that people were walking around with concealed weapons. This is probably one of the safest places to live in the country, and the thought of people getting into gunfights (or asserting that they *could* get into a gun fight if they felt threatened) is truly frightening. No, the use of licensing does not make this more acceptable to me. Assume that someone has a concealed weapon. Could (would!) someone walk up to them and ask them to prove that they have a license for it? Of course not. By definition, no one would know that they have a concealed weapon. If we assume that a licensing process could somehow differentiate those people who would only use a weapon for self defense from those who might use it for non-legal uses (not actually possible, but let's assume it for the sake of discussion), then one might argue that only people who are licensed would be carrying a concealed weapon. But clearly, anyone who obtains a gun without going through the licensing process could *also* be carrying that gun in a concealed manner. So licensing has not bought you anything as an argument for concealment. Now assume that some percentage of people who might be carrying a concealed weapon might be crazy, unstable, have a grudge against society, etc. (Think Virginia Tech.) Do you know who those people are? Would you want to make it easier for someone to have such a weapon?

Note: A friend of mine (and someone else) died because access to guns was easy and legal. One of the two died because the other was carrying a concealed weapon, was mentally unstable because they had suddenly stopped taking the sort of medication that you aren't supposed to stop taking suddenly, and had easy and legal access to a gun. They were shot four or five times. The other killed themselves. The mentally unstable person would have had no trouble getting licensed to acquire a gun.

Dozens of people have died on college and high school campuses in the past few years because people had easy access to guns, and were able to bring them onto the campuses. The idea of making them even more widespread, and making them more prevalent on college campuses, is truly frightening. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-06 11:19:07   James - There are, actually.

IDoNotExist - UC Davis was actually cited by Reader's Digest as one of the most dangerous college campuses in the U.S. Furthermore, licenses can be produced by concealed handgun license (CHL) holders on demand. SCCC is not about making it easier for people to carry a weapon, but about extending the rights of legal CHL holders to carry on campus when they can already carry everywhere else in society. —BrendanChan

2008-08-06 11:53:01   The fact that they can carry them elsewhere is also very frightening.

While I would not put much faith in Reader's Digest as a source of high quality journalism, I can cite some actual crime statistics (with references!) for the Davis campus:

As reported by the UC Davis campus to the Department of Education, for 2004 - 2006:
In 2004-2006, there were 0 cases of murder or manslaughter at Davis. These are the cases where you might be legally justified in using deadly force (ie. a gun) for self defense.

The most common crime here in those years was Burglary 51 - 75 incidents per year in a campus of 30,000 and a town of 50,000-60,000. That means that your odds of being hit with a burglary were between 0.17% and 0.25%, depending on which year you decide to use.

The next most common crime was forcible sex (I assume this means rape, attempted rape, etc.) There were 22-38 cases in campus for those three years. That means that your odds of being a victim of this crime was between 0.12% and 0.044%.

The next most common crime was motor vehicle theft, with 15 incidents per year.

Off campus, there were 0 cases of murder or manslaughter. The most common crime was burglary. In a town of about 60000 people, in the worst year (2004), there were 23 incidents of burglary. Your chances of being burgled in 2004 were 0.0383%.

Source: [WWW]http://www.ope.ed.gov/security/InstIdCrime.asp?CRITERIA=C

Now let's look at FBI statistics for the most dangerous campuses in the country. According to the San Francisco Examiner, Davis is not among the most violent campuses.

Source: [WWW]http://www.examiner.com/a-305970~FBI_ranks_U_Md__near_top_for_violent_crimes_on_college_campuses_in_2005.html

Because the Examiner breaks down their statistics differently than the ones on the DOE site, we can't make a direct comparison of the statistics. However, Davis is definitely not on the list. You can, however, go to the Department of Education site linked to above, and obtain comparable statistics for any campus you wish. A quick look at Michigan State, which is the last ranked campus in the Examiner article, shows far more incidents of physical violence on their campus than at Davis. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-06 12:09:57   I should also note that were UCD to be among the most dangerous campuses in the country (which, based on the article cited above, it is not), it would still be an extremely safe to be. *Some* college campus has to be among the most dangerous, but the entire pool of college campuses has a fairly low crime rate. So the difference between the most dangerous and least dangerous campuses is quite small. A better comparison would be between college campuses and other environments, such as cities. In any case, it hardly seems to justify the desire to carry lethal weapons. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-06 12:39:03   Brendan, would you mind providing links to those stories.

Also, as a Davis native we are by no means one of the most dangerous campuses in the US. —JamesSchwab

2008-08-06 14:26:57   Certainly.

[WWW]http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html —BrendanChan

2008-08-06 14:27:42   I apologize, however, as the blog is not limited to incidents involving students. —BrendanChan

2008-08-06 14:39:06   Do you have links to specific stories about colleges? I don't have the time to look through many years of stories. —JamesSchwab

2008-08-06 15:07:34   No, I'm afraid not. The owner of the blog isn't affiliated with SCCC, and he hasn't elected to create an index of blog entry tags that I could use to point directly to incidents involving students. I spent some time reading it myself and am aware of time constraints. —BrendanChan

2008-08-06 15:52:37   Huh? That's your argument so far? A "Reader's Digest" article and someone's anecdotal blog? You really should offer a better argument for this than the one you've offered so far to Jim. We have a police force on campus, we are an extremely safe campus, so what will concealed carry bring to the table ? —JesseSingh

* I looked it up. UCD rated 97 out of 136 but there's an asterisk. UCD revised some key figures but it was too late to tabulate. The reviesd figures were # of dorm with an attendant(revised from 0 to 100%), # of doors w/peepholes and door chains (revised from 0 to 100%), and "No Emerency Lock Down Plan" was revised to "There is an Emergency Lock Down Plan". These new scores would move Davis way, way up on the Readers Digest ranking. But as has been pointed out-Where are the bodies? To me, the psychology behind spouting "facts" that aren't checked, and using Reader's Digest and questionable blogs to support an argument is frightening. WMDs, anyone?

2008-08-06 16:53:17   When has allowing more guns anywhere made anything safer? I'm interested in the facts so I'll go check out the references for myself, but. . .I'm skeptical at this point. Both my professional and personal experience tell me this is a bad idea for about a thousand reasons. I'll have to go read up and come back once I'm better informed.

This has started a spirited discussion. What do other's think about this issue? I'm interested.

2008-08-06 18:07:17   I doubt that allowing guns on campus will make school safer, but it could make school more fun! —BrentLaabs

2008-08-06 19:26:14   Best of luck on getting concealed permits in California! —StevenDaubert

2008-08-06 19:31:37   I have to say that I truly feel sorry for any person that feels they need to carry a gun on our campus to feel safe. I have never felt that type of fear, even now, as I type this, I am sitting in downtown Chicago at ten thirty at night and I feel perfectly safe walking home without a loaded weapon. I am wondering if the leader of the group can tell me exactly why he is so afraid? I don't mean the word "afraid" to be demeaning, I just can't think of any other motivation to want a handgun other then fear of attack.

2008-08-06 20:08:52   Some thoughts:

I know a few people who feel the need to carry guns. They all seem quite worried that *someone* will suddenly attack them at some point, and that they will be able to deal with this by shooting the other person, or that potential attackers will be afraid to attack them because the attacker won't know who might have a gun. (Of course, this is already the case, whether doing so is legal or not.) I'm not sure why they are so convinced that someone will attack them. Some of them also seem to associate having a gun with their self image. Being able to carry a gun makes them feel better about themselves and their insecurities. This may or may not apply to other people who feel the need to carry them.

The other observation is that in order to generate high ratings (ad sale revenue), many media outlets now cover and emphasize murders and other sensational and violent events as if they are commonplace. In reality, your chances of being in a violent incident have actually decreased over the years, and there are not very many incidents per capita. However, if you don't put the sensational reporting of the media in context, you might believe that anywhere you look, someone is likely to go after you. (Just as everyone on the Internet is scary and dangerous, right?!) —IDoNotExist

2008-08-06 20:32:03   I support Self Defense too, slight difference of opinion however. I think it's cool to see gun-rights groups emerging on campus, you should get in touch with Davis College Republicans and Davis College Democrats. I'm sure both groups would be interested in collaborative debates about gun issues. You could possibly achieve the educational objective in doing so and I know there's passion amongst libertarian leaning liberals in support of concealed carry. Best of luck to the organization, always good to see a diversity of thought. —GregWebb

2008-08-07 11:11:39   You don't need a gun for self defense. Unless it is defense from another gun. Also if you kill someone with any weapon in "self defense" you may be tried for murder and use of excessive force. —TusharRawat

2008-08-07 12:03:06   Of course there is going to be a fine line between justifiable homicide and excessive force; however the point is that CHL holders (as well as policemen) shoot to STOP, not to KILL. A CHL is not by any means a license to kill. By the same token, CHL holders are not going to be vigilantes, because that kind of action is at the very least going to get their CHL pulled and more likely it will result in prison time.

Furthermore, according to law enforcement studies, if someone has a knife and is within 21 feet of you, he can reach attack range before you can draw your weapon and command him to stop (or take it off safety and fire if necessary). —BrendanChan

2008-08-07 17:58:08   There is, of course, a difference in the lethality of bullets that are fired with the intention of stopping someone rather than killing them. Much like phasers in Star Trek, which have a stun setting, modern bullets can be placed into a non-lethal "stop" setting. In this setting, the bullets will not permanently damage any vital organs. Rather they will irritate their target, or make them fall gently to sleep, so that they can wake up refreshed, having failed in their attack and been arrested.

Stopping power is simply a euphemism used by the gun industry for the likelihood of killing someone.

Red lights stop. Phasers stun. Guns kill. Although sometimes they stop people too. Permanently. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-07 20:25:38   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that gun target practice rewards you for shooting the target's chest, not their hand. Besides, shooting someone in the leg is not exactly good for them either, and if you miss, you kill them. Or someone else.

Back in 1994ish, a UC Davis student living in an apartment was shot when his roommate started playing with a loaded gun (his, I think) in their apartment. No one was being evil. The student was wounded or killed.

No one has ever died or been injured by a gunshot wound when there was not a gun somewhere nearby. Drive by knifing are not considered dangerous. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-07 23:18:07   Again, I don't think that the use of a license or a test is a good measure of who is likely to kill or injure someone with a gun. As an example out of today's headlines, take a look at alleged anthrax suspect Bruce Ivins (see [WWW]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/07/AR2008080703443.html?hpid=topnews). This was someone working in a high security government job whom, the government alleges, killed people using a deadly weapon (anthrax). Just because someone has not been convicted of a crime or can pass a test does not mean that they are not going to use a deadly weapon on somebody. In fact, by definition, 100% of people who do use a legally carried gun in a crime must have passed such a test!

As for outlawing forklifts, the difference here is that a forklift is designed for lifting heavy objects. It is not designed as a tool for killing someone. Very few people (if any) have died in intentional forklift attacks. Guns are designed to kill people (and in some cases, animals.) While it is certainly true that many guns are used perfectly legally and without violent intent, the purpose of a gun is to kill.

Let's look at the website of a popular gun magazine for confirmation of this (Guns and Ammo). You can find this at [WWW]http://gunsandammomag.com/. The picture currently shown on the front page of their website shows a man with a rifle and a very large, very dead, buffalo. Quoting from the article at [WWW]http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/ga_betterburn_200807/index.html, "Penetration was more than 40 inches through bone and muscle." Clearly, we are not talking about something that is designed to shoot paper targets.

A quick Google search for other gun related sites brought up this one: [WWW]http://www.impactguns.com/store/ . They talk about ordering machine guns on their home page. That's the sort of thing that you take to a war, not use for self defense.

Seriously - the main purpose of a gun is to kill - even the little tiny ones. You can pretend that no one would ever use it for any other purpose, or that people with a gun license would never use it for that purpose, except in self defense. The 33 dead and 23 injured at Virginia Tech, the 12 dead and 23 wounded at Columbine High School, the 1 dead and 19 injured at Dawson College, the two killed at Platte Canyon High School, the 6 dead and 5 injured at West Nickel Mines School, and the 9 dead and 12 injured at Jokela High School (Finland) demonstrate this quite well. So do my friend, and the other person who died that day. —IDoNotExist

Though I agree with the general notion that more weapons isn't the best means to peace and that sentiment is dear to my heart, if I may draw this discussion to a tangent of a meta-argument. Here I see a page about a group which has a purpose and an identity, and this datum is being included on the wiki. As I see it, the fact that the group is, is not a subject to debate, and such I cannot find a word on this page (I think) that is indisputable in this regard. Regardless of what they promote, heck Ku Klux Klown or Scientology, and how we may feel about this message, they still are free to promote it, just like the preachers with signs. Now, we can add in community opinion of this group, statistics regarding how well they are supported or denounced by the Davis community at large, and write of these things concisely, but a large argument of the disagreement is a pointless waste of our lifespans. If there is apparent datum that isn't true, then that is a matter of debate, but this page isn't to convince people of the truth status of this group's belief, it is just about the group itself. I will delete this argument, including my comment, later, not to support either side of this debate, but to be a jackass and end pointless bickering and infighting that at times past has led to many sad misuses of fists, firearms, and most powerful of all, words. ~D

2008-08-07 23:41:02   A question of statistics, how many members are officially reported on this groups SPAC registration and what are the demographic statistics of the local membership? (note that this data must be reported to SPAC at the time of club registration), Also for the given membership statistics, over how many campuses etc, lets get some research in. —DavidPoole

2008-08-07 23:58:28   I completely agree that the group (unlike myself) does apparently exist, supports a particular point of view, is promoting it, and has every right to do so. I disagree that removing discussion about the group or its views is productive. The group is promoting something that:

1) Does not appear to be necessary, based on statistical data
2) Is not (at least in my opinion) likely to enhance the quality of life for campus residents, but may put residents in severe danger
3) Is the subject of a major national debate, which likely will play a part in the current election.
4) May be based on incorrect or invalid assumptions (as the discussion may or may not show.)

The discussion is a valid debate on the merits of the ideas that this group espouses. It also has not devolved into a flame war, although it has certainly become emotional. —IDoNotExist

2008-08-08 10:02:47   DavidPoole - we are not registered with SPAC yet. That's a future objective. As for total SCCC membership, it is currently more than 32,000 members over 500-odd campuses. —BrendanChan

Ah, okay, I would like at this time to note that it takes a minimum five members for form an SPAC recognized club, as you are not registered, I should ask, how many people are working on this group? ~Dp

2008-08-08 10:23:11   How does this group stand on non-concealed weapons on campus? in most all cases you can get stopped for carrying a replica/airsoft gun or even foam noodle much less an actual firearm or weapon (without permission from admin, excluding rotc and their armory). —DavidPoole

2008-08-09 01:39:43   Curiously, how many of the members, both local and nationally, actually have a concealed carry permit? —DavidPoole

2008-11-15 17:25:40   While I am a strong proponent of the second amendment and am disgusted by the plethora of unconstitutional gun laws on the books at both the state and federal levels, I don't think that there is a reason for this organization to be active in the State of California. Concealed carry in general is in a bad place in CA. In the most populated areas in this state, you need to be a professional, a campaign donor to the sheriff, a law enforcement officer, a body guard, or a high profile rich person in order to get the permit to legally carry. If you go to some place like San Francisco, only being a LEO works. We need to fix these problems first before even attempting to repeal the laws that prohibit those lucky few with CCW permits from carrying on campus without the written permission of the Chancellor. —WilliamLewis

2008-11-22 19:53:52   How come there are an awful lot of people in the United States with guns (and all of them claim it's to protect themselves or hunt) and yet—the United States seems to have an awful lot of crime. And hasn't the gun sales in recent years gone up? And yet, not much reduction in crime? Doesn't Canada have a lot of guns, but not much crime? Has anyone figured out why the United States has lot of deaths caused by shootings (when compared to Canada, England, et al)? Has anyone figured this out? —CurlyGirl26

2008-11-23 10:01:39   Justification/Opinion: Skimming through the comments a lot of people seem to point out that the only reason for carrying a handgun is fear. I prefer to think of my support for concealed carry as a desire to be prepared for the worst even though I hope for the best. School shootings happen regardless of the concealed carry policy on a campus because, let's face it, if someone is planning on going about a murderous rampage they will hardly be concerned with breaking the law. Restricting access to guns from law abiding civilians only means that those who wish to arm themselves for the unfortunate moment when they require self-defense will not do so; criminals can't be expected to and thinking that gun laws keep guns out of the hands of people who would use them for nefarious purposes is naive. Unless you can un-invent weapons, individuals who want to harm others will always find a way. I'm sure many of you will write me off as paranoid for thinking this but it is true. Someone who is crazy, vicious will find a way to get a gun; I know from experience that an ex-con who can't legally buy a gun will do so anyway.

School shooting information: In 1966 there was a school shooting in Texas. A young man, Whitman, locked himself in the university clock/bell tower observation deck with rifles and began picking off students. The situation was resolved in part because of the civilian response to the situation. Police officers at the scene credited the civilians (who used their legal fire arms in an attempt to stop Whitman) for restricting his movements, keeping him from being able to continue his attack and distract him. In fact when the tower was infiltrated, it was with the aid of two civilian sharp shooters.

In this specific case Whitman was suffering from a brain tumor. Whitman sought help and even indicated that something was probably wrong with him in his suicide note. Prior to the shooting he killed his mother and wife with a knife. As in Columbine and VTech, there were warning signs and appropriate medical care was not sought/provided. Perhaps if psychiatric care were able to weed out every single person who poses a threat to society there wouldn't be a need for self-defense weapons but unfortunately that is impossible. —OliviaY

Just curious about a hypothetical case. I hear shooting in the quad, someone falls next to me, everyone draws a gun.. who do I shoot? clearly it was that guy there, bang! chaos. That would be so funny in its self destructiveness. Right now for all those who may also illegally be carrying a gun on campus for whatever reason, that the guy with the gun is the crazy shooter, so shoot him. ~DP

2008-11-23 15:51:05   If you want another example: School shooting in Pearl Mississippi in 1997. Luke Woodham shot and killed 2 students but was then stopped by the Vice Principal who retrieved a gun from his car.

Or in Israel (which I recognize has a slightly different danger level) this year there was a terrorist attack/shooting in a Seminary which was halted when one student heard the gun shots, grabbed his weapon and killed the assailant.

I understand the fear that tons of people will draw their weapons and more chaos will occur but that has yet to happen(?) whereas there are many cases when an individual or individuals who are armed manage to help. *? as I don't know for a fact but presume I would have heard about it by now from someone if there were such a case. Also I think that there are fewer individuals who want firearms than those who do not, so it is rather exaggerated to imagine that everyone would suddenly draw a weapon. —OliviaY

2008-11-23 15:55:14   Another case: 2002 - Appalachian school of law. Shooter was stopped by three students; two were armed and the third was not. —OliviaY

2008-11-23 15:57:39   I think part of the point is that once someone draws a weapon on an attacker, quite often no shots are needed. While these stories aren't about concealed carry on campus, I often read articles about home invasions/robberies halted when someone pulls a weapon on the criminal. One in particular was amusing as it was an 70-80 year old woman who stopped a convenience store robbery when she pulled her pistol. —OliviaY

2008-11-23 16:10:55   One last example: 1998 Andrew Wurst brought a gun to a school dance, which was held at a nearby restaurant, he killed one person and injured three before the owner of Nick's Place aimed a shotgun and held him until the police arrived. —OliviaY

2008-11-23 17:28:29   Compare that to the many many thousands of people who have been shot with guns (illegal or not, illegally carried or not) over the years. I'm sure that given enough people with guns, and enough shootings, you would expect that every once in a while, one would happen to get successfully stopped. In fact, given enough samples, it would be VERY surprising if that didn't happen. But given that the rate at while shootings are stopped by non-police with guns (by your set of examples, about one every few years) compared with the rate at which shootings occur, we're talking virtually no benefit, but a greatly increased risk from more people walking around with guns. Also, as was established in the previous (extremely lengthy) discussion, your risk of being a victim of *any* crime on the UCD campus is less than 0.25%, and the number of victims of crimes where the use of a gun would be legally justified over the past decade was 0.

If you truly feel unsafe on the campus (although in most cases, you shouldn't), you might want to contact the campus police to discuss your concerns. If you would feel safer with people with guns walking around nearby, why not take the money that it would cost for everyone to go out and buy a gun, training, and a concealed carry permit to implement the strategy that you are advocating and use it to pay for a few more police on the campus. That would put an officer within a minute or two of just about every point on campus at any time of day. Police are: trained to use weapons properly and legally, allowed to do so in appropriate situations, unlikely to use their weapons in inappropriate situations, aware of the law and campus policies, able to coordinate with other police, and probably much better able to make a good judgment about when a weapon should or should not be used. I really don't think that this is necessary, given the very low crime rates in Davis. But if it makes you feel better, why not advocate for that instead of random people who might shoot someone? —IDoNotExist

* >>Police are: trained to use weapons properly and legally, allowed to do so in appropriate situations, unlikely to use their weapons in inappropriate situations, aware of the law and campus policies, able to coordinate with other police, and probably much better able to make a good judgment about when a weapon should or should not be used. I really don't think that this is necessary, given the very low crime rates in Davis. But if it makes you feel better, why not advocate for that instead of random people who might shoot someone?<<

Are you willing to take away the right to self-defense based on a "might"? What in your first sentence distinguishes CHL holders from police? CHL holders are: trained to use weapons properly and legally by the state-required CHL class, unlikely to use their weapons in inappropriate situations (as shown by various studies listed on SCCC's web site), aware of the law (thanks again to the state-mandated CHL class - and if CC on campus is allowed, campus policies will not be an issue), able to coordinate with police officers (they can talk to them, unlike violent criminals who will only speak with bullets), and can you prove that the police are better able to judge? I would give the benefit of the doubt to the CHL holder and say that CHL holders and law enforcement officers have equally good judgment about when to employ their weapons.

Furthermore, going back to 1998, I'm going to list all the incidents in which a concealed weapon might have made a difference: Jose Reyes, August 1998; Tapioca Express stabbing, April 2004; Dennis Thrower, November 2004; John Finley Scott, June 2006. Four incidents. Not zero. Leaving aside inclination and eligibility to acquire a concealed weapons permit, having one and a concealed weapon might have made a difference. Shots may not even have had to be fired in the case of the Tapioca Express stabbing - after all, a criminal with a knife will most likely stop dead in his tracks when faced with a gun-armed individual.

Finally, how would $150-300 for a class and $25 for a (California) license pay for enough police to put officers within a minute or two of every point on campus for more than two days? —BrendanChan

2008-11-23 19:45:15   Ok. Let's say that my suggestion that police are not particularly likely to misuse or abuse their weapons is incorrect as you have suggested, and that police are indeed just like everyone else in that respect. Then your assertion that people would be safer if ordinary people are allowed to carry concealed weapons must be false, since ordinary people, like police, will misuse or abuse their weapons. (In fact, I'd argue that they would be more likely to, but for the sake of argument, we're assuming no difference, as you have asserted.) Therefore, having ordinary people carry weapons is (by your own argument) quite dangerous, since they are likely to abuse or misuse them!

Gun bans may not work if guns are readily available despite the ban. The problem here is that guns are readily available. Wouldn't you feel safer if people couldn't shoot other people? I know I would!

If you've read the entire discussion, you also know that easy access to guns resulted in the rather brutal death of a friend of mine, and her boyfriend. I find it unconscionable and frightening that someone would want to increase the number of these weapons on campus. Maybe it would make you feel better that you have a gun, but it wouldn't make me feel better that you (or anyone else - I don't know you specifically) have a gun.

I also know quite a few people who have been raped. In every case (of those people I know), it was date rape, by people they were involved with, or it was molestation by family members. In none of these cases would someone have been likely to have been protected by a gun. As I've mentioned previously, between 2004 and 2006 (the latest year for which statistics were available when I posted about it previously), there were 22-38 reported cases of forcible sex on campus for those three years. That means that your odds of being a victim of this crime was between 0.12% and 0.044%. So your chances of being a rape victim were close to 0. But had each of these people used a gun and shot their attackers, we would have had up to 38 deaths by gunshot in those three years (as opposed to 0.) I'm certainly not defending the attackers. But the idea of killing all of these people is rather frightening. —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 00:30:16   There are many countries where it is not legal for a private citizen to own a gun. Japan is one such country. Shockingly, it has virtually no gun violence.

I don't see how an arms race could possibly make people safer. —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 10:07:47   Good. Let's get rid of the guns *off* campus too!

I think that the whole basis of the argument for guns on campus is based on an irrational fear of being attacked. The statistics for Davis, which I've cited previously, clearly show that your odds of being a victim of a physical attack in Davis are close to 0. The rate of manslaughter or murder in Davis is approximately 0. If you truly believe that you are unsafe here, are likely to be attacked, and are in so much danger that you would need a gun to defend yourself, then the rational thing to do would be to go to some place safe where you are unlikely to be attacked! You've cited several places internationally, but I'm sure that there is *somewhere* in the country with a crime rate even lower than that of Davis that you could move to instead. (Not many places, but they do exist.) If you truly believe that the campus is unsafe, why do you keep placing yourself in danger?! If you don't believe that the campus is unsafe, then carrying a gun is not a rational act, and in fact is something that other people should oppose since it puts *them* in danger.

We've established previously that the fact that someone has a license and training does not mean that they won't use a weapon for something other than self defense. For example, they might use it out of anger, or they might have psychological problems that result in them shooting random people. So the argument that people who have concealed weapons are all going to use their weapons at exactly the right time (ie. when attacked), and never at any other time is not rational.

There are over 300 million people in the country. You have stated that in the past decade, there have been exactly *four* incidents in which a concealed carry weapon *might* have helped. That means that your odds of being helped in the past decade by such a weapon was 300 million / 4 = 1 in 75 million. On a yearly basis, your odds of having been helped by such a weapon are 1/750 million. For comparison, the [WWW]odds of winning Mega Millions, an 11 state lottery with jackpots that are likely to exceed $100 million, are 1 in 176 million. In other words, on a yearly basis, it is more likely that you will become unimaginably rich by playing the lottery than it is that you will benefit from a concealed carry weapon. According to the National Weather Service, your [WWW]odds of being struck by lightning during your lifetime are 1 in 700,000. Your odds of being struck in in 80 year lifetime are 1 in 5000. In the same *lifetime*, by your own statistics, your odds of being helped by the weapons you are advocating would be 1 in 75,000,000 / 8 = 1 in 9,375,000. In other words, your chances of benefiting from carrying your weapon, by your own statistics, are 1,875 times worse than your chances of being hit by lightning in your lifetime. Given these statistics, you would be much better off saving your money, investing it in the market (securities are cheap now!), or even buying a few hundred lottery tickets!

But, you might say, I keep hearing about crime every day in the news! There are shootings! But if you think about it, you are hearing about events happening *somewhere* in the country, with a population of > 300 million. Your chances of actually being involved in such a crime are close to 0.

Clearly, the statistics show that carrying a gun on campus is not rational, since it is extraordinarily unlikely that you would ever need it. But it does increase the chances of someone being injured or killed either by accident, or because someone who is carrying one of these weapons decides to use it out of anger, because they have a mental issue, etc. So you are asking us to believe that the campus community would benefit from being placed in significantly *greater* danger in exchange for you receiving protection against an event that is almost certain never to happen. Supporting what you are advocating seems like a really bad idea to me. —IDoNotExist

And they didn't stop the Columbine shootings in Colorado or the VA Tech shootings in VA, now did they? Those are perfect test cases to see if your argument for concealed carry weapons is correct. Clearly, they did not. —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 10:48:43   Olivia: Please read the entire discussion. I've cited numerous statistics for the city of Davis and for the Davis campus previously, as well as national statistics. In fact, those have been the basis of the core of my argument! I've shown that my argument is correct using actual data. I've cited the sources of that data (including the NRA!), and provided convenient links to those sources. I've even demonstrated mathematically that the counterarguments do not make sense. Continuing to push for something based on an assumption that has clearly been shown to be false is not rational, and is really a religious argument (not in the deity sense, but in the adherence to an "absolute truth" sense). The Iraq War is a good example of what happens when someone makes decisions based on what they want to be true, rather than what the data actually shows.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you, as you are advocating for changes to existing policies (laws?).

Yup. The chances are not 0. However, the chances of you being killed or injured in Davis in lots of other ways are much greater. Why not advocate for those instead? You might save far more lives. —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 11:04:50   But according to the statistics on UCD campus crime, the campus violence in which your solution could be in any way considered to be appropriate or legal virtually never occurs! So you are presenting a solution to a problem that either doesn't exist, or that happens so infrequently that it might as well not exist. (In the years for which data was available, there were 0 such incidents!) I propose an alternative solution: Don't do anything. The rate of violent incidents in which guns could have been used will remain the same: 0. People will remain safe, since they already were. —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 11:22:54   Ugh. I'm arguing math and evidence against a belief in an absolute truth here. Clearly, nothing that I can possibly say will ever change your mind (Olivia and Brandon). My argument is clearly laid out for anyone else who wants to read through all of this. I'm moving on... —IDoNotExist

2008-11-24 11:33:46   I think part of the problem inherent in any attempt to talk reasonably about guns is that people seem to believe that guns have some innate quality that makes them bad. I have noticed this a lot in California, and it always puzzles me. People seem to think that a gun will cause a person to do things they wouldn't normally do, or that it is capable of going off on it's own, and usually will do so when there's a convenient crowd of innocent bystanders. Guns are just tools, the same as hammers or cars, and they are only dangerous when used negligently or abusively. Negligence and abuse is something that occurs when someone is improperly educated about guns, or when they already intend to do some mischief. If I drive my car recklessly, then it is very possible that I could hurt someone. Does that mean we should ban cars? Of course not, it only means that we should have rules regarding car use, and require that anyone who wishes to drive a car get a license. Did you know that more than half of all gun deaths in the United States are from suicide? (You can research all the ways people die and the statistics involved [WWW]here.) People sometimes use ropes to kill themselves, should we ban those as well? —JoePomidor

2008-11-24 12:40:29   Joe: there's an important difference. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill. The primary purpose of a car is for transportation. The primary purpose of a rope is (presumably) to tie things together. I don't buy the argument that because a gun is an inanimate object without the ability to decide to kill for itself that it is any less dangerous. You could make the same argument about nuclear weapons. A nuke is just an object. It doesn't do anything unless someone deliberately arms it and uses it to blow up a city. But it is *designed* to blow up a city. Therefore, it's not a good idea to let people carry them around, because someone might *use* one. Yes, you can injure or kill someone with nearly any object. You can kill someone with a small amount of water if you cause them to inhale it. But no one goes around talking about how you can use a water bottle to drown someone. People don't talk about drive by brickings, even though you can kill someone with a brick. A plastic bag can be used to kill someone by suffocation, but they aren't *designed* or *intended* to be used for that. Guns aren't terribly useful for anything other than putting holes in things, whether those things are paper targets, defenseless moose, or people. No one here is advocating for the construction of a shooting range on campus, so I think it's a pretty safe bet that we are talking about the more lethal uses of a gun.

If you drive recklessly, you can lose your license. But the analogy is poor, because cars aren't meant to kill. Guns have that as their primary purpose. (In fact, in Europe, cars are now required to be designed to reduce injuries to pedestrians, not just to their own occupants, because there is a desire to make them LESS dangerous.)

Olivia: Actually, I did know someone who suddenly developed homicidal tendencies, resulting in the death by gunshot of two people. The person had actually been very nice, and there was no reason to believe that anything like that might happen. I'm sure that they could have even passed your concealed carry test with no problem. All it took was a failure to take their medication at the wrong time. The other person who was killed, by the way, was in the military and most likely had legal possession of a gun as well as real training in how to use it.

Joe: I'm sorry that you don't like how I'm leaving the discussion. But it's gone on for months, and I have other things to do with my time. I feel that I've made my point, and anyone who reads this discussion will be able to tell what that is, and why I've made that argument. They can agree with it or not as they wish. I also feel like nothing that I say here is going to change the minds of Brendan and Olivia, since they readily dismiss all evidence that opposes their view. I am happy to adopt views other than the one that I currently have, but I haven't seem any evidence presented that supports their opinion, and there's plenty of evidence that runs counter to it. This could go on for a *very* long time (parallel discussions about gun control certainly have on a national level), but at some point I think we have to acknowledge that everyone has presented their best argument, and it's time to move on and discuss something else (at least it is for me.) I'm sorry that my method of doing so sounds sanctimonious to you, but I really do feel like this has become something more akin to trying to debate religion rather than looking at real world evidence, deciding whether a problem actually exists, deciding whether or not it makes any real sense to address that problem if it does, and finding the most effective solution if the problem needs to be addressed. I don't think that such discussions are productive for me, because they very rarely result in anyone changing their view, regardless of what arguments are made. So I'd rather move on and deal with something more productive. —IDoNotExist

comparison of statistics** in the mid-nineties, when Florida was still one of the few shall-issue states, found that Florida concealed handgun license holders were three times less likely to be arrested than were New York City police officers." (A comparison of statistics on arrests of police officers, published by the Washington Post on 08/28/94, to Florida
Department of Law Enforcement statistics submitted to the Governor on 03/15/95.)

>>I'd be much less afraid of surrendering to a cop and risking jail too, then I would of some adrenaline pumped idiot with a gun.<< You're forgetting that none of the CHL holders who used their firearms to defend themselves or others were idiots. I can remember at least half a dozen, off the shelf, and a whole lot more if I do serious research. —BrendanChan

—
As a response to the post above, and placed here as a new thread, if the point is to stop said potential shooting, why a lethal handgun? Would a taser not be sufficient? I suspect pulling a gun out would only add problems. Unless ten people pull a gun out, which is what I think some of you are envisioning (yay heros!)... But in said extremely disturbed cases such as the VT guy, I'd expect it to prompt a shootout. A taser would definitely be able to take the person down, more than long enough to be restrained. Excluding certain cases where someone brings a rifle or is rooftoping it, most shootings seem to be (not doing proper fact checking here) at close to very close ranges, well within the 30/35 foot range of a taser. Conversely, a tranquilizer gun is also highly accurate, well ranged, are available as pistols, and are quite a bit less lethal to both target and potential bystanders. Is there a justification for lethality, if the point is to avoid having to use the weapon and use it as a tool to stop a situation or protect oneself and their peers? I would say that using a taser or a tranquilizer gun would do much more to stop a person and contain your nightmare scenario than a non-lethal shot to the abdomen, legs/arms, etc. Unless the plan is to shoot to kill or to fire more than once? -ES

2008-11-24 21:21:03   Oh wow. I'm not even going to get into these comments. But may I say that I am saddened and disappointed by the existence of a Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. —gurglemeow

"2008-11-29 18:57:40"   'The United States has among the world's lowest "hot" burglary rates — burglaries committed while people are in the building — at 13 percent, compared to "gun-free" Britain's rate, which is now up to 59 percent, Lott reports. "If you survey burglars, American burglars spend at least twice as long casing a joint before they break in. ... The number one reason they give for taking so much time is: They're afraid of getting shot."' ([WWW]http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/deaths_in_merced.htm) —BrendanChan

2008-12-16 24:01:21   The problem I have with students carrying concealed weapons on campus is their motivation. Why do you want to carry around a weapon? Do you feel that UC Davis is an unsafe campus, unsafe enough that you would have the desire to protect yourself with a firearm? I don't feel unsafe around Davis at all, and I am a woman (I saw that statistic about the prevalence of rape on campus, I have some pepper spray, but I rarely carry it around because I feel safe enough). What specific factors have caused you to desire to carry a concealed weapon on campus? Saying that one should be able to is not a good enough reason (because then you should apply the same reasoning to teachers/staff/students of age at High Schools, Disneyland etc.), a nice and specific why would be sufficient for me. —ArianeMetz

2009-1-11 11:11:11   — This group wants to carry guns on UC Davis's peaceful, buccolic campus "...for safety and security."? If people carry guns within the groves of academe, that would decrease safety and security. Consider: some guy makes a comment about a concealed carrier's ugly tattoo. Without a gun, the tattooed one would simply take umbrage and maybe hurl back an insult...with a gun? Well, suffice to say in the same situation, life and limb would potentally be counted much cheaper—thus vastly decreasing safety and security on campus... —SV

2009-01-09 23:37:32   Ok. I'd like to chime in at this point with a recent experience that I had along these very lines. I had the opportunity to go to a shooting range with some people I knew, and if I had wished to, I could have fired a gun with the guidance of people who were experienced in shooting them. (I did watch for a while to see what was happening.) This was actually a rather frightening experience. Despite the claims about safety made above, I don't think that I have ever been in a place where I felt like my life might be in danger - even purely by accident - to the extent that I did in this place. I should note that the staff had a variety of procedures and checks in place to enhance the safety of the patrons, although some of them seemed more for show or legal compliance than things that might actually protect someone. At one point, I even found that (hopefully unloaded) rifles were being pointed in my direction even though I was not near the actual shooting range at the time. Not intentionally, but they were, and they could have been loaded, and they could have gone off. While the staff certainly seemed to know what they were doing, and were concerned about safety (certainly, they did not want to be shot!), I did not feel the same way about many of the customers. I felt safest after we left. I should note that the staff members were walking around with loaded weapons on their hips. Several customers were kicked out while I was there for various reasons - one for bringing kids without proof of parental consent.

While I'm usually quite vocal about my opinions (as some readers of my comments here will note), in this shop, I was very careful about what I said. I certainly did not say anything about my feelings about guns, not because I might offend the shop staff or customers, but because I had no idea which of them might be crazy enough to shoot someone for having a differing opinion. Furthermore, I did not comment on anything else that I had an opinion on either for exactly the same reason. Having guns around did not make me feel safe, but they did make me feel threatened, and restricted my speech for my own safety.

Given this experience, I would absolutely NOT feel safer were there to be people walking around the campus with concealed weapons. I would absolutely feel much less safe. I think that bringing guns on campus would have a chilling effect on free speech, and freedom to express opinions. Davis is a place where you can talk safely to just about anyone without having to worry about what might happen. I don't think that it would still be such a place if people were walking around with weapons, especially concealed ones. For me, at least, the objectives of this organization, if successfully implemented, would directly eliminate the very benefits that they claim that concealed guns would promote. —IDoNotExist

Was that customer a first-timer? And since I'm assuming he or she wasn't the parent of the kid, what was he or she doing with them bringing them to a shooting range? Also a safety risk, and a correct action on the part of the staff to kick the group out. What about the other customers?

I note that you've brought up the staff open-carrying weapons; that is their legally-given prerogative within their own establishment, and is not something that SCCC advocates. Your argument that concealed carry is a threat to free speech verges on the 2nd Amendment, which again isn't something that SCCC deals with, but speaking in terms of practicalities:

1. Having a gun doesn't turn a previously sane individual into Attila the Hun. “Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools,” U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Education with support from the National Institute of Justice, Co-Directors Bryan Vossekuil, Marissa Reddy PhD, Robert Fein PhD, October 2000, versus [WWW]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasebo_slashing and [WWW]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1378228.stm.

2. The modifier "concealed" is there for a reason. I grant that if this were open carry, you would have something, but we're talking about concealed weapon carry. If you ever take a trip to a shall-issue state, ask someone about the last time he or she noticed someone else carrying. If concealed weapon carriers were inclined to attack upon hearing something they disagreed with, 40 out of the 50 United States would be bloodbaths right now, and CC would vanish as fast as politicians could make it. —BrendanChan

2009-01-09 23:44:16   Another recent experience - our political fights over guns and the Second Amendment are apparently news overseas. I've talked to a number of people from different countries about it (in fact, they brought it up because they wanted to see how Americans felt about it.) In Europe, people do not understand our obsession with guns. They view Americans as dangerous, partly because of it. They also think it is really silly, and don't think that the arguments in favor of guns make any sense.

It can be useful to look past your own mirror to see how people from elsewhere view things... —IDoNotExist

2009-01-10 11:38:10   I don't know which one it was - I went along for the ride. The people with the shotguns were not the ones kicked out. I should note that the guns were pointed at the ground, but not straight down, so when those people walked through the door they happened to be pointing towards where I was sitting. Even if those people were carrying these weapons in what is considered to be a safe manner (at least in terms of where they were pointing), my life was still in danger.

I think you are missing my point (well, actually, quite a few of them, but let's address the latest one...) Let's assume that it was never the case that people fired guns out of anger, always obeyed the law, always had perfect gun safety, and never fired at anyone except in self defense, especially if they had concealed carry permits. (Clearly, this is not the case, but just for the sake of argument.) I would *still* feel much less safe on the campus if people were carrying around weapons (concealed or otherwise, permitted or otherwise). And I would *still* be more cautious about what I said. Now taking into account that the assumption I made a few sentences ago is clearly not true, what you propose is truly frightening. It doesn't take into account that people DO fire weapons out of anger (often, this is called murder), or when they shouldn't (see the BART officer who just shot and killed an unarmed man in the back even though other officers had him lying on the ground with their knee on his back!), because they have a mental issue (see lots and lots and lots of people), because they are drunk or on drugs (clearly something that never happens in a college town, right?), etc. It doesn't take into account the way people really behave. It doesn't take into account that loaded weapons occasionally go off by accident. Even if you were right (which I don't think is true) and these things were never issues (which they clearly are), what you are proposing would still be frightening and have a chilling effect. I hope that you can appreciate that your arguments are frightening to many people, and that even if correct (which I don't believe they are), what you are proposing would have a chilling effect on speech and behavior... —IDoNotExist

2009-01-10 12:16:09   Mostly, yeah, I am around unarmed people, although I do know and associate with people who carry guns around.

No, I'm not being physically threatened for my opinions. But I have met people who would threaten or kill people for having opinions that differ from them. Yeah. Really. I even knew someone who under normal circumstances was perfectly nice who DID kill someone. Yeah. Really. So it does happen, and I've known people involved. —IDoNotExist

2009-01-10 12:54:27   I am curious - for those of you on the pro-gun side of this discussion... What do you feel when you carry a gun? (Emotionally, not in terms of having a heavy object by your hip.) How is this different from what you feel when you do not carry a gun? —IDoNotExist

2009-01-10 14:01:07   So it is about being able to easily purchase or otherwise acquire power and status? —IDoNotExist

2009-01-11 19:21:43   To put those numbers in perspective, you would have had a 0.05% chance of being involved in a robbery of any type in 2007 in the country, and a 3.666666666667 *10-06% chance of being murdered during a robbery. —IDoNotExist

2009-01-12 00:00:59   This thread of late seems to have turned into a fun fest of insults, quotes and debate about the 2nd amendment in general.

On the subject of police as protectors: FBI data in 1998 cited approximately 2.5 full time law enforcement officers employed per 1000 citizens. (This does not include those who are on active duty) [WWW]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_98/98crime/98cius30.pdf

Criminologist study: Roughly 2.5 million crimes are halted in a year because the intended victim has a gun. In 90% of the cases, the victim was able to deter the criminal without actually firing/firing a warning shot. "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law

In 1982 Kennesaw Georgia passed a law that required all heads of households to own and maintain a gun. The crime rate dropped 89% that year.

Views from outside the United States? Let's look at crime statistics from a sampling of such (copypasta from "armedandsecure.org" for the most part but I provided the citation information):

A 1998 study established that, for the most part, crime is now worse in England than in the U.S. According to a Reuters report summarizing the study, "You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States. The rate of robbery is 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America's." ( Most Crime Worse in England Than US, Study Says," Reuters, October 11, 1998. See also Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96," (October 1998)) According to that same study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."

An August 2001 story in USA Today reported that, "criminal use of handguns in Britain has increased by almost 40 percent in three years, according to a report by the Center for Defense Studies at King's College" and "armed robberies involving handguns have increased dramatically in recent years." The story went on to point out that, "Although the 'bobby' on the beat still patrols unarmed, specially trained armed response units of each police force are being called out more often. The number of incidents in which armed officers have responded has increased two-fold — from about 6,000 in 1994 to 12,000 in recent years."

Hardly anyone mentions that other countries with much tougher gun bans (i.e., Brazil and Russia) have murder rates that are four times those of the U.S. ( John Lott, More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control (2000; second edition), p. 241.) Australia, which banned almost all guns following the tragic multiple shooting in Tasmania (1996), has seen armed robberies increase by 73%, unarmed robberies increase by 28%, assaults by 17%, and kidnappings increase by 38%. ( Australia Bureau of Statistics )

Finally, a burglar is far less likely to break into your house when you're home if you live in an area where some civilians own firearms, because the burglar has no way of knowing which civilians have firearms. ( U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," ) The percentage in Great Britain, Canada, and the Netherlands, of burglaries occurring with the homeowner present, is 45% (average of all three). But in the United States, it's 12.7%. ( Gary Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America )

That was some great procrastination, back to DNA extractions. —OliviaY

2009-01-12 00:32:44   Correlation is not causation.

Perhaps Americans are less likely to be home in general than someone in the Netherlands.

Russia has a very different society, with a radically different set of problems, such as extremely high unemployment. Brazil has extremely high rates of poverty. I think that you may find that these strongly correlate to murder rates.

"Roughly 2.5 million crimes are halted in a year because the intended victim has a gun" - How would you prove this?

"In 90% of the cases, the victim was able to deter the criminal without actually firing/firing a warning shot." - Do you mean that there are 250,000 instances in this country per year in which someone shoots at an attacker? I seriously doubt that. It doesn't even make sense when you compare it to the actual crime rates in this country.

"In 1982 Kennesaw Georgia passed a law that required all heads of households to own and maintain a gun. The crime rate dropped 89% that year." -Ok, but what WAS the crime rate there? In 2000, it had a population of only 21,675. In a town that size, it would only take a few crimes (plus or minus) to change the crime rate by that much. Using the numbers in the previous comments, if Kennesaw has the same crime rate as the US average, between 10 and 11 people would have been the victim of a robbery, so only a few victims would lead to a large percentage change.

You cite statistics that show that the crime rate in Britain and the availability and use of handguns have increased together, but you use this, from what I can tell, to try to indicate that the illegality of guns in Britain is the cause of the increased crime rate. Leaving aside the fact that Britain has had major economic problems that may also result in an increased murder rate, the statistics you cite seem to offer a good counterargument to your argument. More guns have resulted in MORE crime, not less.

* That information is about the increase of criminal use of handguns, I don't know if those guns were purchased legally or not. As most criminals acquire their weapons illegally I would assume that they are not. This I do not know. Again, I provided information after you made a comment about "European" views from your personal interaction with a not-so-random sample.

If you would like to pick countries to cite, let's try Iraq, where EVERYONE, or at least every household, owns a gun. Please note that hundreds of thousands of people have died there in the past few years, in large part because one group of Iraqis with guns and another group of Iraqis with guns don't particularly like each other, and have been shooting each other as a result. That seems to strongly contradict the assertion that if everyone had a gun, no one would need to worry about being attacked.

* Touche. Then again, that's a nation besieged by war both from infighting and Americans. Is that really a situation which is at all comparable? I do not believe so. Are you implying that the world will plunge into the same problems if everyone has guns? Wait was what that you said before: "Russia has a very different society, with a radically different set of problems, such as extremely high unemployment. Brazil has extremely high rates of poverty. I think that you may find that these strongly correlate to murder rates." Hmmmm this couldn't at all apply to IRAQ could it?

Well, surely the people with the BIG and POWERFUL guns wouldn't get attacked. Especially the well trained ones with armor and rockets and air support and tanks. Like the US military. Oops. They do too. Apparently, their guns are not much of a deterrent against people who want to shoot at them. —IDoNotExist

2009-01-12 01:08:33   You're right. In 1980, the population was apparently about 500, and increased 70% in the subsequent decade or two. That makes it even MORE likely that a very tiny fluctuation in the number of people engaging in a crime would cause a dramatic fluctuaton in the percentage. Again, using the 0.05% national average crime rate that showed up above, that's a fluctuation of less than one person resulting in a doubling of the percentage crime rate!

Your sample pool is WAY too small to draw any statistically significant conclusions. Also, note that a dramatic increase in population likely changed the demographics of the town, the number and percentage of people with guns, and the number of people willing an able to commit a crime.

To see a good example of this, look at the percentage fluctuations of the price of any lightly traded stock (penny stocks - stocks trading for < $1.00 per share are often a good example.) A fluctuation of only one or two cents can often result in changes in the price of 15-30% because the numbers are so small.

I think Iraq is a perfect example here because it is an example of a society in which there is not a sufficiently strong government available to keep order and because everyone is armed. Note that as soon as the previous government was removed, everyone went at each other. Guns were absolutely not a deterrent, but were an enhancement to murder, ethnic cleansing (aka genocide), and attacks on pretty much everybody.

You mentioned Russia. Let's look at what happened in several former Soviet states or associates after the USSR broke up. In Yugoslavia, people broke up along ethnic lines and shot at each other for five years, destroying major cities and killing hundreds of thousands in the process. In Russia (or not, depending on your point of view), the Chechens got into a civil war. In Ukraine, Romania (with the exception of the shooting of Ceausescu), Czechoslovakia, East Germany, and most other former Soviet states, people did not bring out their guns, and peaceful transitions of power occurred.

It's not limited to former Soviet states though. Take a look at Zimbabwe and Rwanda... —IDoNotExist

2009-01-12 01:52:25   Umm...wow. I'm rather amazed at that statement that people in other countries can't possibly be well informed.

I did not ignore those other countries. I already commented on them. I have friends in and from those countries, and they tell me that people there do not understand the US proclivity towards gun ownership. From what I can tell, it is not part of the culture in those countries. Yet these are very smart and successful people who are well aware of what goes on in the world, and are far better informed about political and social issues within the US than most people within the US are about political and social issues in other countries.

I was actually referring to Russia as having a different society - and I was referring to a history of very strong governmental control (ie dictatorships) combined with a very large underclass. I was referring to Brazil in the context of the extreme poverty that afflicts the majority of the population there. The point is that violence is more commonly found in places where there is little hope and poor education. This applies to poverty stricken areas of the US too. —IDoNotExist

2009-01-14 00:48:50   Is there going to be more or less crime at UC Davis if everyone is allowed to carry a gun? Are there going to be more or fewer shootings at UC Davis if everyone is allowed to carry a gun?
What financial impact would concealed carry have on UC Davis Police?
What impacts would this policy have on UC Davis' ability to attract top students, scholars, and faculty?

These are the main questions that need to be answered from a policy perspective if you want people to take this seriously. —OscarSabino

2009-01-14 21:29:49   Yes. [WWW]http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=7229 —IDoNotExist

2009-01-14 23:48:59   Brendan: In response to your statement that "I'm not sure that the nervousness and fear would apply, because an armed 20-something college student would be on a level playing field with an armed criminal", it is of course true that anyone with a concealed weapon would not express or experience emotions such as nervousness or fear, because the brain is directly controlled by the presence of a concealed weapon. Furthermore, if the gun carrier outguns the other person, this apparently negates all such emotions.

(This is, of course, not true of soldiers, police, or the general public. But apparently concealed carry permit holders have emotional characteristics that the rest of humanity does not.) Certainly, US soldiers typically outgun anyone who they might be up against in a military situation, and are very well trained. Yet there soldiers find combat to be a time of extreme stress in which they experience nervousness and fear just like the rest of us. Many also develop post traumatic stress disorder in the process.

The vast majority of your arguments seem to center around the assumption that concealed carry permit holders behave in ways that the general public does not, and that they can always be guaranteed to do so. This really doesn't make sense, because this isn't how people behave in real life. —IDoNotExist

2009-01-15 00:27:15   I don't think that the people I know personally are particularly relevant to the issue... —IDoNotExist

2009-01-22 20:40:30   "A graduate student from China was decapitated with a kitchen knife in a campus cafe at Virginia Tech by another graduate student who knew her, police said Thursday." It isn't the tool that is used, but the fact that there are some nutjobs out there who are intent on doing harm to others. You might think that after the prior tragedy that Virginia Tech would be a very safe place with all the new security measures and warning systems that were put in, but that would be naive and wrong. —JasonAller

2009-01-23 00:09:54   Well, clearly we should let people have the most lethal tools available, so that if they do go nuts and decide to do harm to others, they can do it in the most efficient and expedient way! Why not give people machine guns? Or grenades? Or nukes? After all, only people intent on doing harm to others would do harm to others with a weapon... —IDoNotExist

2009-01-23 18:04:19   In my opinion, the goal of the organization is to make spreading fear across college campuses more popular, and to make it much more convenient for angry people to shoot their classmates, especially while using mathematically nonsensical arguments to justify the increase in fear and shooting convenience. While I realize this is different from the stated purpose of the organization, and from what you believe the purpose of the organization is, I am basing my opinion of the purpose of the organization on what I believe to be the likely result of its work, should it succeed, and not on its stated goals. —IDoNotExist

2009-02-05 19:53:04   Yea, I think the risk of danger flows from guns and the attendant proximity to stress, anxiety, uncertainty, depression and all the triggers that are particular to college students. —CurlyGirl26

I have one (hopefully) obvious question. First, the purpose of the SCCC seems to be simply extend concealed carry permits to include campus. All of the arguments here have their base in fact, and I can sympathize with both sides. I would like to pose a question to the side opposing the SCCC: Do you have these feelings of fear and dread that you will be shot walking around town? Now, I am in fact opposed to the SCCC, but it strikes me that the side FOR has cited numerous articles and numbers, but the side OPPOSED has primarily used fear in leu of reasoning. I am confident that there are people in the city of Davis that posses a concealed carry permit. Do you feel any more in danger now than you did without that knowledge? My only point is that your arguments are weak and need work, unless the opponents here are of the oppinion that all concealed carry permits should be revoked. —MasonMurray

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