Recent Changes for "Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions" - Davis Wikihttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_RestrictionsRecent Changes of the page "Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions" on Davis Wiki.en-us Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2012-06-06 08:11:07WilliamLewisRevert to version 72 (has nothing to do with our 501(c)(3) restrictions.). <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 58: </td> <td> Line 58: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- ------<br> - ''2012-06-06 05:29:04'' [[nbsp]] I addressed Dauberts name calling and CovertProfessors trolling in that exchange plenty. Repeatedly reposting decidedly bogus, malicious comments on a business page (that comes up on the first page of google) for no reason other than to escalate ill-will is alot like bullying. --["Users/jimi"]</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2012-06-06 05:29:04jimiComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 58: </td> <td> Line 58: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2012-06-06 05:29:04'' [[nbsp]] I addressed Dauberts name calling and CovertProfessors trolling in that exchange plenty. Repeatedly reposting decidedly bogus, malicious comments on a business page (that comes up on the first page of google) for no reason other than to escalate ill-will is alot like bullying. --["Users/jimi"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2011-07-11 18:29:06LilySComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 56: </td> <td> Line 56: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2011-07-11 18:29:06'' [[nbsp]] How is Fiesta DanceN'Fitness's page specifically adverty? To quote CP, "I do think that a salon page should have all of its services listed, and perhaps services not offered, if that would be helpful". In this case there is a list of dance classes offered but not the prices, and the list is so extensive that it is the same as calling a restaurant and asking them to read the menu. What specifically can editors do to make this page less of an advertisement? It seems purely informational to me. Thanks! --["Users/LilyS"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2011-01-12 11:56:31JabberWokky <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 26: </td> <td> Line 26: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + ('''Note''': You can ignore "Advert", as that's tagged because it ''is'' the include.)</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-07-06 15:15:35Joy&TaylorComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 50: </td> <td> Line 50: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-07-06 15:15:35'' [[nbsp]] could somebody help me by pointing out what exactly on the Graduate Movers page makes it cross the advert line? Is it the customer reviews? Because we didn't even put those up to begin with, a wiki happy customer did. If someone could take a look and help us out that would be great.<br> + <br> + as for the Restaurant pages as someone who has a pretty specific dietary practice in a town full of people like who do, menus and even ingredients info would be amazingly informative. As long as it isn't written too provocatively, trying to make mouths water and such. --["Users/Joy&amp;Taylor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:46:52CovertProfessorreply to Davidlm <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 45: </td> <td> Line 45: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- *Believe it or not (you can check my page), I don't think there should be any prices on the wiki, food or service, I can always link to my website for that.-dm</span> </td> <td> <span>+ *Believe it or not (you can check my page), I don't think there should be any prices on the wiki, food or service, I can always link to my website for that.-dm<br> + * I believe you. :-) It's just that some restaurants don't have websites, or don't put their menu on their websites (how stupid!) or put the menu on with some irritating format like flash. As a hungry Davisite and customer, I very much enjoy the convenience of a readily available menu. It doesn't hurt salons if restaurants have full menus, does it? --cp</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:35:48Davidlm <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 45: </td> <td> Line 45: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ *Believe it or not (you can check my page), I don't think there should be any prices on the wiki, food or service, I can always link to my website for that.-dm</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:32:23CovertProfessorrespond to Davidlm <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 43: </td> <td> Line 43: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * ''2010-06-07 19:27:54'' [[nbsp]] I agree with the professor, with a caveat. A restaurant menu doesn't have to have prices listed just because it's a menu, and neither does a salon menu. And salon menus can be important. I don't do "texture" treatments, or children's haircuts. Clients might like to know this before they book with me. --["Users/Davidlm"]<br> + * David, I do think that a salon page should have all of its ''services'' listed, and perhaps services not offered, if that would be helpful. As for prices on a restaurant menu -- I might not make that order over the phone if the food is too expensive, so I think that is useful. Again, it's also useful to have a rough idea of a salon's prices. --cp</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 46: </td> <td> Line 48: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- ''2010-06-07 19:27:54'' [[nbsp]] I agree with the professor, with a caveat. A restaurant menu doesn't have to have prices listed just because it's a menu, and neither does a salon menu. And salon menus can be important. I don't do "texture" treatments, or children's haircuts. Clients might like to know this before they book with me. --["Users/Davidlm"]</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:27:54DavidlmComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 45: </td> <td> Line 45: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-06-07 19:27:54'' [[nbsp]] I agree with the professor, with a caveat. A restaurant menu doesn't have to have prices listed just because it's a menu, and neither does a salon menu. And salon menus can be important. I don't do "texture" treatments, or children's haircuts. Clients might like to know this before they book with me. --["Users/Davidlm"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:25:32CovertProfessorpossible indicators of promotionality <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 30: </td> <td> Line 30: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + Some possible indicators: Written in the first person instead of third person. Too much bold. Lots of exclamation marks. Inviting you to come to the store or what-have-you. Lots of over-the-top adjectives not counterbalanced with anything remotely negative. Glossy pictures that look nothing like what an ordinary community member would take. --["Users/CovertProfessor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 19:22:01CovertProfessorRestaurant menus rock. Salon menus, not so much <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 40: </td> <td> Line 40: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * Here is one reason to distinguish between them: with an online restaurant menu, I can go to the page, look at the menu, and make a phone call to initiate a delivery or pick-up. Whereas with a salon, it's not as though I can make a phone call and get a haircut. Indeed, once I know the general price range at a salon, I can call and ask about the specific service that I want. But I can't call a restaurant and ask them to read me the menu, or ask them for the price of a specific menu item unless I already know what is on it! --["Users/CovertProfessor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 16:43:40TomGarbersonMoving comments into appropriate section <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 36: </td> <td> Line 36: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- <br> - [[Comments(Thoughts, questions?)]]</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 42: </td> <td> Line 40: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + [[Comments(Thoughts, questions?)]]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 16:40:37TomGarbersonComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 40: </td> <td> Line 40: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-06-07 16:40:37'' [[nbsp]] Where do you draw the line between a restaurant menu and a long price list? Aren't they essentially the exact same thing? Don't get me wrong, a restaurant menu appeals to me far more than a salon "menu," but I'm not sure where or how you make the distinction. --["Users/TomGarberson"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:44:49ScottMeehleibComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 38: </td> <td> Line 38: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-06-07 15:44:49'' [[nbsp]] I think having restaurant menus on the wiki is awesome! That much, at least, doesn't seem like advertising to me. --["Users/ScottMeehleib"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:39:31PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 21: </td> <td> Line 21: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> =Problem Entries= </td> <td> <span>+</span> =<span>&nbsp;</span>Problem Entries<span>&nbsp;</span>= </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 27: </td> <td> Line 27: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- =Discussion surrounding guideline=</span> </td> <td> <span>+ = Discussion surrounding guideline =<br> + == When is the 'promotional' line crossed? ==<br> + For now- go with your gut.</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 29: </td> <td> Line 31: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- [[Comments]]</span> </td> <td> <span>+ == What's definitely not okay? ==<br> + Overt advertising generally isn't okay unless it's historical or educational (e.g. recording history). Long price lists aren't usually okay.<br> + <br> + == How about menus on restaurant pages? ==<br> + Good question! We're still discussing that. Have thoughts? They're useful to some folks.<br> + <br> + [[Comments(Thoughts, questions?)]]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:33:52PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 29: </td> <td> Line 29: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> [[Comment]] </td> <td> <span>+</span> [[Comment<span>s</span>]] </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:33:16PhilipNeustromClearing away, rebuilding <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 21: </td> <td> Line 21: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- =Some Community Viewpoints=<br> - <br> - Just like everything on the wiki, there are a myriad of views. The ones below are some of the personal statements and guidelines that hint at where a common line can be found.<br> - <br> - ["Users/CovertProfessor"] had this somewhat personal way of putting it, in regards to a downtown business:<br> - <br> - ''Speaking personally — yes, I want the downtown to thrive and be successful. But please understand that the purpose of the wiki is not to promote any particular business, or even the downtown in general. The purpose is to serve as a resource for the Davis community. Thus, both good and bad comments are retained, text that is too "ad-like" or promotional is removed, and the pages should reflect what is true and accurate.''<br> - <br> - ["Users/JabberWokky" Evan "JabberWokky" Edwards] observes the guideline: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key, or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. A key thing to note is that we also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones honestly missed or skipped as edge cases in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance.<br> - <br> - ["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] says: Remember, this is just our large policy. How we interpret it is up to us. For instance, Cheap Food is fine because it's clearly a consumer protection/educational comparison of a large number of things and not a single business posting promotional material about itself. Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here.<br> - <br> - ["Users/jefftolentino"] sums it up in a simple statement: Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional.<br> - </span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 41: </td> <td> Line 27: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- [[Comments]]</span> </td> <td> <span>+ =Discussion surrounding guideline=</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 43: </td> <td> Line 29: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- Given that a lot of pages have price information and there will be a period of discovering which instances are ok within the guidelines and which are not it is important to have a discussion about what this means.<br> - <br> - There are three areas to discuss:<br> - 1. Promotional Material<br> - 1. Advertising<br> - 1. Prices<br> - <br> - ------------<br> - I think it'd be a better idea to write a more human-readable form of that promotion tidbit. We wrote that (literally) to please the IRS. What's it mean? It means, as is the case now, business owners can't use the wiki as a direct promotion / advertising vehicle. This is a community resource, written by the community.<br> - <br> - However, the one major new change: we can't have things like a '''direct''' price list in the body of a page. This crosses the line from educational community resource to being promotion of the business, at least in the eyes of the IRS. Aside from that, things remain largely the same.<br> - <br> - For instance, the prices on ["APEX Cycles &amp; Service"] cross the defined line. And, I think if you think rationally about it, it looks like that business is using the wiki as a direct way to promote their business rather than the wiki maintaining an educational and useful page on the business.<br> - <br> - '''Business owners are still totally allowed to participate in all aspects of the wiki!''' And that's what makes all our pages so great. In this case, they simply can't upload like crazy giant logos that flash or write things like "COME TO OUR STORE!!!" We, as a community, usually edit that kind of stuff out anyway.<br> - <br> - The '''promotion''' aspect is ''entirely'' up to us to define. And that's pretty much what we've already been doing with things like the ["Advert"] tag. We just need to be a bit more aware of this in the future. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - <br> - Does this mean that all of the restaurant menus have to go? --["Users/CovertProfessor"]<br> - * I know most are linked off the restaurant pages -- so I guess the definition of what the body of page means is required. To me, it means all pages. Of course if we simply blacked out the prices... --["Users/RyanMikulovsky"]<br> - * Jason's right that we won't have to change very much if we don't want to . Most of the menus include price information, which could be taken to be against the rules. However, note that the last section (about community commentary, etc) uses various secret IRS codephrases that indicate we have broad ability to talk about things which have other exempt value. For instance, we can talk about prices if there is a need to educate the public and consumers, promote neighborhood cohesion and lessen neighborhood tensions, and combat community deterioration. Or for any over-riding educational value. We just don't want blatant price tables on for-profit business pages. Specific to menus: I think prices may have to go on those, technically. Remember, this is just our large policy. How we interpret it is up to us. For instance, ["Cheap Food"] is fine because it's clearly a consumer protection/educational comparison of a large number of things and not a single business posting promotional material about itself. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 20:36:19'' [[nbsp]] There is a bunch to talk through, but the good news is that Wiki Spot has 501(c)(3) status. Philip seems to think we won't have to change too much of how we handle things, but we need to talk out how we will handle things. --["Users/JasonAller"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 20:43:24'' [[nbsp]] Is it ok to list prices for apartments? This is information that isn't easily available elsewhere. --["Users/WilliamLewis"]<br> - <br> - Yes. See my above comment. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 20:47:28'' [[nbsp]] I'm pretty sure that as we go over the wording we can work out a way to keep important features of the wiki. Philip was pretty smart in the way he worded it, but you have to read it over several times to catch all the subtlety. It took me about four readings to start to figure it out. --["Users/JasonAller"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 20:52:05'' [[nbsp]] Big ol' price tables make me unhappy in general. Yet ["Pizza: FSI Calculations"] makes me feel warm inside. I think price ranges definitely have value, though. --["Users/BrentLaabs"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 21:11:54'' [[nbsp]] I'll be integrating our questions &amp; answers to [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] when we're mostly done discussing. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 21:20:52'' [[nbsp]] We have three areas to deal with:<br> - 1. Promotional Material. This one is harder to define. Figuring out what it applies to could be interesting. Possible impacts: Flyers for a show, official logos rather than photos of signs, "staged" photos of apartment complexes, pdfs of handouts? What else?<br> - 1. Advertising. We've already gone after this and pushed back with people who came on too strong? We have the ["Advert"] include. I don't see this having any direct impact on the way we do things.<br> - 1. Prices. This will be interesting. What if someone leaves a comment "I paid $50 for a perm here and I love it." Traditionally no one would alter their comment. If it is a comment by a person about the business is it ok for the price to be mentioned? I'd tend toward leaving the comment alone. For prices in the "article" section there are some I think are important for people to have when shopping around. ["Apartments"] for instance as Brent mentioned. I also like the table on the ["Pizza"] page even though it is massively out of date. A menu without prices loses more than half the value to the person reading it. If I see hamburger -- $.99 versus hamburger -- $7.95 I've got different expectations of that hamburger.<br> - Overall I think that we can work with this, the trick is to work this through and integrate it in a consistent manner with prior established Wiki norms. The key element that brought this on is a cause for celebration and opens the door to some exciting possibilities for both Wiki Spot and Davis Wiki. --["Users/JasonAller"]<br> - <br> - Like I said before, comments generally protected. Prices in comments - don't even worry about it. I think with comments we just take the approach we've always taken -- remove spammy stuff.<br> - <br> - Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here.<br> - <br> - What we did in the IRS change was give the community tremendous room to define what is and isn't okay, with some exception. Price lists on a for-profit business page is the one concrete thing. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 21:49:51'' [[nbsp]] How about these rules for menus?<br> - 1. Don't put menus in the body of a page. This includes embedding an image. All menus must be linked to. Listing a few dishes that the restaurant prepares is fine, as long as you don't rip the description out of the menu. Of course, listing the description from the menu would be ok if you're discussing the description of the item for one reason or another.<br> - * What if the image is embedded, but the thumbnail is small enough so that it's not readable without clicking on it? That way, you can see what it is and access it quickly -- I hate the way that the wiki handles PDFs -- without the prices actually being on the page. --["Users/CovertProfessor"]<br> - * If the image is too small to see in the thumbnail, what is the advantage of a thumbnail over a text link? The thumbnail wastes way more space. --wl<br> - * Look at the ["Red Orchid Restaurant"] page, for example. I think with the images for the menus, you can see a little bit better what you're going to get when you click. And I don't think they waste space -- I think they look nice on the page. If we made those thumbnails just a little bit smaller, you wouldn't be able to see the prices at all. --cp<br> - * I agree. Thumbnail isn't a sizing term -- it means a representational image. Sure, the thumbnail option on the wiki is almost always used to just resize images, but technically a thumbnail is a representational image to show the person what they will be clicking to see. A menu is a good example. Absent of any IRS considerations, I prefer it that way when doing a "cold read" of an entry: it lets me know what information is available in an attractive manner. My mind wants to say that it's documenting the business (and to my POV, it clearly is), but I'm not sure it is an honest act given the current limitations we accepted as a non-profit. Is a menu commercial or documentary in nature? If I put up a website on my server to host menus, would that be okay to link to? How about a non-board member? -jw<br> - * Since I am (thankfully) not part of the IRS, I can't comment on that part -- and if all of you decide that posting menus in any form is a violation of IRS strictures, I will understand. But speaking as a community member who uses the wiki to decide where and what I might be eating on any given night, having the menus online is a real convenience. In other words, it's even more than documenting the facts. -- cp<br> - * The issue is that it's not educational or charitable. Not everything has to be, of course, but the IRS agent zeroed in on commercial use and wanted us to have something defined in terms of limitations. You could argue that it's educational, and in fact argue that the IRS agent is wrong, but we didn't do that. As-is, menus are likely not okay unless they have educational, historical, news or some sort of other over-riding value aside from convenience, for instance ["In-N-Out Secret Menu"] which is not available elsewhere and is literally compiled from community common knowledge. Given that restaurants rubber-band their menus to my apartment door, I think it's pretty clear menus are promotional material. I'm okay with William's compromise - it's up to us to enforce this. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - <br> - 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should not be hosting these even now because menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such. [http://archive.org Archive.org] is your friend, anyway.<br> - 1. If a business doesn't have a current menu online, we can host it here. However, the menu should be in the form of an image file or a PDF, not text. (Sorry screenreader users)<br> - 1. Pictures of price boards embedded in an article are ok as long as they are artistic. Also, incidental pictures of price boards are ok as long as they aren't the focus of the picture.<br> - 1. The prices at ["buffets"] can be posted in the body of the page as long as undue attention is not given to them. Big, bold fonts are out. A little price in a data table is fine. --["Users/WilliamLewis"]<br> - I would encourage text searchable pdf when possible, if you would have taken the time to write the menu in the page then you have time for this. While not perfect would help those with screen readers. --["Users/AlexMandel"]<br> - <br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-08 22:48:56'' [[nbsp]] Well now, this seems a bit one-sided. A busines can't do anything that promotes that business, yet any number of anonymous critics can post unverified opinion that damages a business... How is that equitable? --["Users/JimStewart"]<br> - <br> - Can you give a concrete example of what you're worried about? We're not saying that businesses cannot add information about their business or respond to comments and criticism. However, for-profit businesses cannot use the wiki to advertise and directly promote their business. This is the way things have always (when editors have been paying attention) been. I wish this was easier to explain. Hopefully we can come up with something concrete and human-understandable here.<br> - <br> - The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the idea. The IRS was concerned about for-profit businesses essentially writing pages that were basically promotional material for their business (which occasionally happens, but, like I said, it's usually fixed). I think phrasing our human-readable form of this in terms of "voice of the community.." is a good idea.<br> - ------<br> - ''2009-12-09 14:32:58'' [[nbsp]] Folks- I spent some time writing what I believe is a human-understandable form of this guideline: [http://wikispot.org/Community_Guidelines#PROMOTE see here].<br> - <br> - * "voice of community" vs voice business part: lets us address the "written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business" aspect. If businesses write promotional phrasing on pages about their business then that should be cleaned up (as is the case now).<br> - * "There is to be no promotion of business": broad in terms of what promotion means and we kinda define this. Generally addressed by "Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a whole, not promote a particular for-profit business." Again, we don't have much of any promotion of business here - we have many-sided pages that do not promote any particular business. This is the way it's always been.<br> - * Made clear the new restriction on price information and promotional material. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - ------<br> - People seem to be getting really confused about the prices note. I tried making it more clear in the latest wording:<br> - <br> - ''For-profit businesses are always free to contribute, respond, and help maintain pages<br> - about their business on a wiki. These pages are maintained by the community as a whole,<br> - and the pages should be written in the voice of the community, not in the voice of the<br> - business. Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a<br> - whole, not promote a particular for-profit business.<br> - <br> - What's this mean? This means that adding stuff like promotional material (without any<br> - other value, e.g. it's not historical, newsworthy or otherwise interesting) and<br> - advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses. '''We tend to<br> - consider things like long product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are<br> - exceptions.'''''<br> - <br> - Nevertheless, I can see the pricing note as being damaging. Our attorney told us it wasn't a requirement for us to adapt the language we sent to the IRS in our guidelines -- it's most important to follow the spirit of them. With that in mind, perhaps a little informal poll is in order: Do folks think it's worth it to axe the mention of prices in our guideline and keep the rest of the language? So, it'd just be:<br> - <br> - ''For-profit businesses are always free to contribute, respond, and help maintain pages<br> - about their business on a wiki. These pages are maintained by the community as a whole,<br> - and the pages should be written in the voice of the community, not in the voice of the<br> - business. Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a<br> - whole, not promote a particular for-profit business.<br> - <br> - What's this mean? This means that adding stuff like promotional material (without any<br> - other value, e.g. it's not historical, newsworthy or otherwise interesting) and<br> - advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses.''<br> - <br> - Then we can simply say, hey, this long page of prices is really just promotional and axe. So we still have to remove straight up promotional material w/o any other value, but we don't have this strict "prices" mention hovering over our heads. The most important part of the guideline is ensuring that ''there is to be no promotion of business (directly) and nothing included in the wiki written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business.'' This is legalise. As long as we stick to the guideline, as written (without prices), in spirit, I think we are fine (and, as I mentioned, we're not required to implement it exactly as sent to the IRS).<br> - <br> - I think we need another sentence in the last paragraph that says something about "the line" when a page becomes more of an advertisement or promotional tool rather than a useful community page. Not sure how to phrase this - please help if you can.<br> - <br> - What do folks think? --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> - * I like the revised version better. I think that many times price lists are useful for Davisites, especially restaurant menus. To me, it gets promotional when it says "BIG SALE" or "BEST PRICES IN TOWN" or things like that. For an added sentence, how about: "The following tends to be promotional in nature: excessive use of bold or similar ways of drawing attention, the use of testimonials not generated by wiki editors... [add to list]" --["Users/CovertProfessor"]<br> - -----------<br> - My three thoughts so far gathered from spots on wikis, in order as I've evolved them after having thought about it during the IRS discussions (although I hadn't corresponded directly about this, which is why there's a query to Philip in there, which he has since answered elsewhere). Disclaimer: I'm very lightly rewriting for clarity a bit in these copies:<br> - <br> - '''Initial post-IRS practical position:''' It almost puts me in mind of the difference between using material (like a speech) and copying material. You can use the material to support your work, but not use the material to be the core body of your work. In our case, if the focus of the writing is on the prices, or they are a large portion of the body of the work, then it's basically a promotional sales tool. If there is substantial body to the work and it has prices in it as a minor aspect of the writeup, the work is about he subject, and the prices are simply ''part'' of that documenting of the subject. IRS aside, there has always been a reluctance to have wiki entries (and entire wikis) become mere commercial sales material. Philip, since you spoke to the various parties most, would you characterize the concern here as being that of purpose and/or intent, and the later back and forth was an attempt to define a stated restriction that blocked the purpose and/or intent of wiki content from being commercial in nature? On a more practical aspect, I think that an entry that reads like a newspaper article about a subject (I'm thinking a hair salon here) is fine, even if it includes prices and events (which is typical for newspaper articles, typically using a limited set of representative prices to illustrate the price range). If the entry looks like a block ad, with a ''focus'' on a simple list of services and prices and marketing verbage to promote special events with very little else -- well then, it is a problem. In the past those have lingered in the idea (as least in my mind) that somebody would eventually come along and add more community oriented content. If that's no longer an option, and the community content has to come first... well... I'm not sure that's a bad restriction, as it might make for a higher quality wiki at any given time (including those that are new and growing). -jw<br> - <br> - '''A reply regarding specific rules, which supports the second rewrite's focus on core goals of inform and teach rather than promote:''' I'd like to respond to one of your points: a blurry line within the context of community editing and standards is not a terrible thing. Yes, it can result in "fairness" issues, but I think that there are always fairness issues in a "somebody has to step up and do something" volunteer system. This is just another case where people make judgement calls and if they go far enough out of bounds of the combined view of the community standards, somebody calls them out on it. This is also a top down Wiki Spot guideline, but that's true of other restrictions like "must have an intended community". The interwiki gnomes who are tagging and watching for abuse are making judgement calls there too (and sometimes cross checking or disputing each other). Each community can decide how far to push, and if some wiki goes way overboard and becomes a pure business listing service (Redding was a bit close in direction at one point, actually), then ''at that time'' it can be addressed. I'm pretty sure that your points are more oriented toward a "inside a member community" perspective specific to Davis Wiki, but the question of "what are our restrictions?" is going to pop up for new and maturing communities as well. I'd like to see flexible yet clear guidelines develop rather than creating One True Format for entries which all Wiki Spot communities must follow. -jw<br> - <br> - '''Finally, a summary after poking at all the hair salon pages (some of which were over the line IMO) and my trying to formulate a general rule of thumb that allows me to edit toward those core goals, plus a note to discourage hysterical, kneejerk editing rather than calm, thoughtful revision and space for educational outreach to new editors:''' My current guideline that I'm working off of is: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. We also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones missed in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance. -jw<br> - ------<br> - ''2010-02-08 18:42:31'' [[nbsp]] I think a good reference is the "commercials" on public television. Vague, low-key description of your products' benefits without a sales pitch, no prices, no sales, no discounts. --["Users/JimStewart"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2010-02-08 18:53:28'' [[nbsp]] I think the looser interpretation is good. The important part (to me), is conflict of interest. We should ask editors to refrain from changes that could be perceived as a conflict of interest. Maybe as a test, an editor should ask themselves if their edits could ''appear'' to be a conflict of interest (even if their intent is genuinely within wiki guidelines). If so, then their edits may eventually come up for discussion and/or get removed.<br> - <br> - I also liked JW's comparison to newspaper articles vs ads. Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional. --["Users/jefftolentino"]<br> - ------<br> - ''2010-02-08 19:21:07'' [[nbsp]] I've been mulling over a relevant issue that I'd like to toss into this mix, just to get people's thoughts. There are some businesses that people really like. (I'm sure we can all think of businesses that we really like). We might be very enthusiastic about those businesses, or want to let people know about a great deal offered by that business -- discount for students, happy hour special, coupons, etc. And people might genuinely want to know about that stuff. None of that seems promotional to me, and yet if a business owner were to say those same things, it does seem promotional. But we can't have one set of rules for what business owners can say and what customers can say, right? So what do we do? --["Users/CovertProfessor"]<br> - * That's why I connected it to a newspaper review of a place. Newspaper reviews often mention discounts of common interest, they just don't focus on or list them without also doing a full coverage of the good and bad of the subject. When you read an SNR review (and I'm using them because they quite often do reviews), they will mention enough so you have an idea of the pricing and if there are any notable discounts, usually at the end of the review. The bulk 95% of the column is about the actual subject: what they do or don't do, observations about them, perhaps a bit of background about the owner or how or why it it was founded. The focus is about the subject of the thing being describes, with prices and discounts as a minor component of that description, not a primary focus that promotes the business. I think Jeff sums it up well (although I'd credit Justice Potter Stewart with the phrase) with the community discussion drawing the line on the few edge cases where something is creeping into promotional rather than informative. I'd imagine that would work in part because, in most cases that have happened here in the past years, it tends to be a blatant move by the business owner, manager or employee that is a clear cut and obviously promotional and self-serving set of edits (presumably in most cases out of ignorance). -jw<br> - * Thank you, jw, that helps. If we focus on the whole entry rather than the parts, then we don't have to worry about a particular mention of a sale or a coupon or even a bit of glowing praise. --cp<br> - ------<br> - ''2010-03-10 09:48:25'' [[nbsp]] Shouldn't this page be on the wikispot wiki instead of the davis wiki? --["Users/WesHardaker"]<br> - * This is more specific and references includes and social dynamics specific to the Davis Wiki. -jw<br> - * As an update, there are now some entries that are being created on the hub wiki that should be linked to... ahem... when Tom rewrites the page as he's offered to. -jw<br> - ------<br> - ''2010-06-07 12:43:04'' [[nbsp]] After seeing the Advert Tag on our Wiki page I revised the content. Basic info, web address, contact info and any postings that have been posted remain. Hope it complies. Pam Danzik --["Users/PamDanzik"]</span> </td> <td> <span>+ [[Comment]]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:14:23JabberWokkyToplined the fact that Business owners are still part of the community of Davis. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 18: </td> <td> Line 18: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + '''Keep in mind that business owners are still totally allowed to participate in all aspects of the wiki!''' And that's what makes all our pages so great. In this case, they simply can't upload like crazy giant logos that flash or write things like "COME TO OUR STORE!!!" We, as a community, usually edit that kind of stuff out anyway.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:12:18JabberWokkyAnything else below the comment macro particularly worth integrating? <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 19: </td> <td> Line 19: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ =Some Community Viewpoints=<br> + <br> + Just like everything on the wiki, there are a myriad of views. The ones below are some of the personal statements and guidelines that hint at where a common line can be found.<br> + </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 29: </td> <td> Line 33: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ =Problem Entries=<br> + </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 32: </td> <td> Line 38: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + [[Comments]]</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 40: </td> <td> Line 48: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- [[Comments]]<br> - </span> </td> <td> <span>+ ------------</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:08:14JabberWokky(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 27: </td> <td> Line 27: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> ["Users/jefftolentino] sums it up in a simple statement: Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional. </td> <td> <span>+</span> ["Users/jefftolentino<span>"</span>] sums it up in a simple statement: Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional. </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:08:03JabberWokkyPhilip's note re: educational is always okay. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 24: </td> <td> Line 24: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + ["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] says: Remember, this is just our large policy. How we interpret it is up to us. For instance, Cheap Food is fine because it's clearly a consumer protection/educational comparison of a large number of things and not a single business posting promotional material about itself. Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:05:46JabberWokkyJeff's summary. Any others that are particularly pithy that characterize things <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 24: </td> <td> Line 24: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + ["Users/jefftolentino] sums it up in a simple statement: Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 15:03:51JabberWokkyKicking up my guideline, partially for the last sentence to offer room to chill. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 22: </td> <td> Line 22: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + ["Users/JabberWokky" Evan "JabberWokky" Edwards] observes the guideline: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key, or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. A key thing to note is that we also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones honestly missed or skipped as edge cases in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 14:57:16JabberWokky <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 155: </td> <td> Line 155: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * As an update, there are now some entries that are being created on the hub wiki that should be linked to... ahem... when Tom rewrites the page as he's offered to. -jw</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-06-07 12:43:04PamDanzikComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 155: </td> <td> Line 155: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-06-07 12:43:04'' [[nbsp]] After seeing the Advert Tag on our Wiki page I revised the content. Basic info, web address, contact info and any postings that have been posted remain. Hope it complies. Pam Danzik --["Users/PamDanzik"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-03-10 11:31:52JabberWokky <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 154: </td> <td> Line 154: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * This is more specific and references includes and social dynamics specific to the Davis Wiki. -jw</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-03-10 10:48:25WesHardakerComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 152: </td> <td> Line 152: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-03-10 09:48:25'' [[nbsp]] Shouldn't this page be on the wikispot wiki instead of the davis wiki? --["Users/WesHardaker"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-09 00:05:28AlexMandelwonder if alt tags can hold a whole menu <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 87: </td> <td> Line 87: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ I would encourage text searchable pdf when possible, if you would have taken the time to write the menu in the page then you have time for this. While not perfect would help those with screen readers. --["Users/AlexMandel"]<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 22:51:06CovertProfessor <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 149: </td> <td> Line 149: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * Thank you, jw, that helps. If we focus on the whole entry rather than the parts, then we don't have to worry about a particular mention of a sale or a coupon or even a bit of glowing praise. --cp</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 22:13:55JabberWokky <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 148: </td> <td> Line 148: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * That's why I connected it to a newspaper review of a place. Newspaper reviews often mention discounts of common interest, they just don't focus on or list them without also doing a full coverage of the good and bad of the subject. When you read an SNR review (and I'm using them because they quite often do reviews), they will mention enough so you have an idea of the pricing and if there are any notable discounts, usually at the end of the review. The bulk 95% of the column is about the actual subject: what they do or don't do, observations about them, perhaps a bit of background about the owner or how or why it it was founded. The focus is about the subject of the thing being describes, with prices and discounts as a minor component of that description, not a primary focus that promotes the business. I think Jeff sums it up well (although I'd credit Justice Potter Stewart with the phrase) with the community discussion drawing the line on the few edge cases where something is creeping into promotional rather than informative. I'd imagine that would work in part because, in most cases that have happened here in the past years, it tends to be a blatant move by the business owner, manager or employee that is a clear cut and obviously promotional and self-serving set of edits (presumably in most cases out of ignorance). -jw</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 20:21:07CovertProfessorComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 146: </td> <td> Line 146: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-02-08 19:21:07'' [[nbsp]] I've been mulling over a relevant issue that I'd like to toss into this mix, just to get people's thoughts. There are some businesses that people really like. (I'm sure we can all think of businesses that we really like). We might be very enthusiastic about those businesses, or want to let people know about a great deal offered by that business -- discount for students, happy hour special, coupons, etc. And people might genuinely want to know about that stuff. None of that seems promotional to me, and yet if a business owner were to say those same things, it does seem promotional. But we can't have one set of rules for what business owners can say and what customers can say, right? So what do we do? --["Users/CovertProfessor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 19:53:28jefftolentinoComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 142: </td> <td> Line 142: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-02-08 18:53:28'' [[nbsp]] I think the looser interpretation is good. The important part (to me), is conflict of interest. We should ask editors to refrain from changes that could be perceived as a conflict of interest. Maybe as a test, an editor should ask themselves if their edits could ''appear'' to be a conflict of interest (even if their intent is genuinely within wiki guidelines). If so, then their edits may eventually come up for discussion and/or get removed.<br> + <br> + I also liked JW's comparison to newspaper articles vs ads. Its like the People vs Larry Flynn argument, "you know it when you see it;" ie, if it looks promotional it probably is promotional. --["Users/jefftolentino"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 19:42:31JimStewartComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 140: </td> <td> Line 140: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2010-02-08 18:42:31'' [[nbsp]] I think a good reference is the "commercials" on public television. Vague, low-key description of your products' benefits without a sales pitch, no prices, no sales, no discounts. --["Users/JimStewart"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 19:41:48JabberWokkyAnd now dinner becons! <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 135: </td> <td> Line 135: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- </span>Initial post-IRS practical position:<span>&nbsp;</span>''It almost puts me in mind of the difference between using material (like a speech) and copying material. You can use the material to support your work, but not use the material to be the core body of your work. In our case, if the focus of the writing is on the prices, or they are a large portion of the body of the work, then it's basically a promotional sales tool. If there is substantial body to the work and it has prices in it as a minor aspect of the writeup, the work is about he subject, and the prices are simply ''part'' of that documenting of the subject. IRS aside, there has always been a reluctance to have wiki entries (and entire wikis) become mere commercial sales material. Philip, since you spoke to the various parties most, would you characterize the concern here as being that of purpose and/or intent, and the later back and forth was an attempt to define a stated restriction that blocked the purpose and/or intent of wiki content from being commercial in nature? On a more practical aspect, I think that an entry that reads like a newspaper article about a subject (I'm thinking a hair salon here) is fine, even if it includes prices and events (which is typical for newspaper articles, typically using a limited set of representative prices to illustrate the price range). If the entry looks like a block ad, with a ''focus'' on a simple list of services and prices and marketing verbage to promote special events with very little else -- well then, it is a problem. In the past those have lingered in the idea (as least in my mind) that somebody would eventually come along and add more community oriented content. If that's no longer an option, and the community content has to come first... well... I'm not sure that's a bad restriction, as it might make for a higher quality wiki at any given time (including those that are new and growing).<span>''</span> -jw </td> <td> <span>+ '''</span>Initial post-IRS practical position:''<span>' </span>It almost puts me in mind of the difference between using material (like a speech) and copying material. You can use the material to support your work, but not use the material to be the core body of your work. In our case, if the focus of the writing is on the prices, or they are a large portion of the body of the work, then it's basically a promotional sales tool. If there is substantial body to the work and it has prices in it as a minor aspect of the writeup, the work is about he subject, and the prices are simply ''part'' of that documenting of the subject. IRS aside, there has always been a reluctance to have wiki entries (and entire wikis) become mere commercial sales material. Philip, since you spoke to the various parties most, would you characterize the concern here as being that of purpose and/or intent, and the later back and forth was an attempt to define a stated restriction that blocked the purpose and/or intent of wiki content from being commercial in nature? On a more practical aspect, I think that an entry that reads like a newspaper article about a subject (I'm thinking a hair salon here) is fine, even if it includes prices and events (which is typical for newspaper articles, typically using a limited set of representative prices to illustrate the price range). If the entry looks like a block ad, with a ''focus'' on a simple list of services and prices and marketing verbage to promote special events with very little else -- well then, it is a problem. In the past those have lingered in the idea (as least in my mind) that somebody would eventually come along and add more community oriented content. If that's no longer an option, and the community content has to come first... well... I'm not sure that's a bad restriction, as it might make for a higher quality wiki at any given time (including those that are new and growing). -jw </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 137: </td> <td> Line 137: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- A reply regarding specific rules, which supports the second rewrite's focus on core goals of inform and teach rather than promote:</span> ''I'd like to respond to one of your points: a blurry line within the context of community editing and standards is not a terrible thing. Yes, it can result in "fairness" issues, but I think that there are always fairness issues in a "somebody has to step up and do something" volunteer system. This is just another case where people make judgement calls and if they go far enough out of bounds of the combined view of the community standards, somebody calls them out on it. This is also a top down Wiki Spot guideline, but that's true of other restrictions like "must have an intended community". The interwiki gnomes who are tagging and watching for abuse are making judgement calls there too (and sometimes cross checking or disputing each other). Each community can decide how far to push, and if some wiki goes way overboard and becomes a pure business listing service (Redding was a bit close in direction at one point, actually), then ''at that time'' it can be addressed. I'm pretty sure that your points are more oriented toward a "inside a member community" perspective specific to Davis Wiki, but the question of "what are our restrictions?" is going to pop up for new and maturing communities as well. I'd like to see flexible yet clear guidelines develop rather than creating One True Format for entries which all Wiki Spot communities must follow.<span>''</span> -jw </td> <td> <span>+ </span> ''<span>'A reply regarding specific rules, which supports the second rewrite's focus on core goals of inform and teach rather than promote:''' </span>I'd like to respond to one of your points: a blurry line within the context of community editing and standards is not a terrible thing. Yes, it can result in "fairness" issues, but I think that there are always fairness issues in a "somebody has to step up and do something" volunteer system. This is just another case where people make judgement calls and if they go far enough out of bounds of the combined view of the community standards, somebody calls them out on it. This is also a top down Wiki Spot guideline, but that's true of other restrictions like "must have an intended community". The interwiki gnomes who are tagging and watching for abuse are making judgement calls there too (and sometimes cross checking or disputing each other). Each community can decide how far to push, and if some wiki goes way overboard and becomes a pure business listing service (Redding was a bit close in direction at one point, actually), then ''at that time'' it can be addressed. I'm pretty sure that your points are more oriented toward a "inside a member community" perspective specific to Davis Wiki, but the question of "what are our restrictions?" is going to pop up for new and maturing communities as well. I'd like to see flexible yet clear guidelines develop rather than creating One True Format for entries which all Wiki Spot communities must follow. -jw </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 139: </td> <td> Line 139: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- </span>Finally, a summary after poking at all the hair salon pages (some of which were over the line IMO) and my trying to formulate a general rule of thumb that allows me to edit toward those core goals, plus a note to discourage hysterical, kneejerk editing rather than calm, thoughtful revision and space for educational outreach to new editors:<span>&nbsp;''</span>My current guideline that I'm working off of is: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. We also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones missed in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance.<span>''</span> -jw </td> <td> <span>+ '''</span>Finally, a summary after poking at all the hair salon pages (some of which were over the line IMO) and my trying to formulate a general rule of thumb that allows me to edit toward those core goals, plus a note to discourage hysterical, kneejerk editing rather than calm, thoughtful revision and space for educational outreach to new editors:<span>''' </span>My current guideline that I'm working off of is: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. We also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones missed in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance. -jw </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 19:36:25JabberWokkyDump of my thoughts and rationale regarding this. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 132: </td> <td> Line 132: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ -----------<br> + My three thoughts so far gathered from spots on wikis, in order as I've evolved them after having thought about it during the IRS discussions (although I hadn't corresponded directly about this, which is why there's a query to Philip in there, which he has since answered elsewhere). Disclaimer: I'm very lightly rewriting for clarity a bit in these copies:<br> + <br> + Initial post-IRS practical position: ''It almost puts me in mind of the difference between using material (like a speech) and copying material. You can use the material to support your work, but not use the material to be the core body of your work. In our case, if the focus of the writing is on the prices, or they are a large portion of the body of the work, then it's basically a promotional sales tool. If there is substantial body to the work and it has prices in it as a minor aspect of the writeup, the work is about he subject, and the prices are simply ''part'' of that documenting of the subject. IRS aside, there has always been a reluctance to have wiki entries (and entire wikis) become mere commercial sales material. Philip, since you spoke to the various parties most, would you characterize the concern here as being that of purpose and/or intent, and the later back and forth was an attempt to define a stated restriction that blocked the purpose and/or intent of wiki content from being commercial in nature? On a more practical aspect, I think that an entry that reads like a newspaper article about a subject (I'm thinking a hair salon here) is fine, even if it includes prices and events (which is typical for newspaper articles, typically using a limited set of representative prices to illustrate the price range). If the entry looks like a block ad, with a ''focus'' on a simple list of services and prices and marketing verbage to promote special events with very little else -- well then, it is a problem. In the past those have lingered in the idea (as least in my mind) that somebody would eventually come along and add more community oriented content. If that's no longer an option, and the community content has to come first... well... I'm not sure that's a bad restriction, as it might make for a higher quality wiki at any given time (including those that are new and growing).'' -jw<br> + <br> + A reply regarding specific rules, which supports the second rewrite's focus on core goals of inform and teach rather than promote: ''I'd like to respond to one of your points: a blurry line within the context of community editing and standards is not a terrible thing. Yes, it can result in "fairness" issues, but I think that there are always fairness issues in a "somebody has to step up and do something" volunteer system. This is just another case where people make judgement calls and if they go far enough out of bounds of the combined view of the community standards, somebody calls them out on it. This is also a top down Wiki Spot guideline, but that's true of other restrictions like "must have an intended community". The interwiki gnomes who are tagging and watching for abuse are making judgement calls there too (and sometimes cross checking or disputing each other). Each community can decide how far to push, and if some wiki goes way overboard and becomes a pure business listing service (Redding was a bit close in direction at one point, actually), then ''at that time'' it can be addressed. I'm pretty sure that your points are more oriented toward a "inside a member community" perspective specific to Davis Wiki, but the question of "what are our restrictions?" is going to pop up for new and maturing communities as well. I'd like to see flexible yet clear guidelines develop rather than creating One True Format for entries which all Wiki Spot communities must follow.'' -jw<br> + <br> + Finally, a summary after poking at all the hair salon pages (some of which were over the line IMO) and my trying to formulate a general rule of thumb that allows me to edit toward those core goals, plus a note to discourage hysterical, kneejerk editing rather than calm, thoughtful revision and space for educational outreach to new editors: ''My current guideline that I'm working off of is: lean toward "example prices" like those that would appear in a newspaper review and away from a "price sheet" like the business would fax to you. If it looks like a flier photocopied on pink paper and stuffed under windshield wipers, it's a bad entry. If it reads like a documentary on the place, with notable, key or example prices given to help document the subject, it's okay. Note that there are no hard and fast absolutes other than "don't be commercial", which isn't exactly specific. We also won't be in danger if there are a few spam or iffy ones missed in the normal course of editing; reasonable diligence is the requirement, not 100% compliance.'' -jw</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 18:14:49CovertProfessor <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 131: </td> <td> Line 131: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> * I like the revised version better. I think that many times price lists are useful for Davisites, especially restaurant menus. To me, it gets promotional when it says "BIG SALE" or "BEST PRICES IN TOWN" or things like that. --["Users/CovertProfessor"] </td> <td> <span>+</span> * I like the revised version better. I think that many times price lists are useful for Davisites, especially restaurant menus. To me, it gets promotional when it says "BIG SALE" or "BEST PRICES IN TOWN" or things like that. <span>For an added sentence, how about: "The following tends to be promotional in nature: excessive use of bold or similar ways of drawing attention, the use of testimonials not generated by wiki editors... [add to list]"</span> --["Users/CovertProfessor"] </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 18:06:49PhilipNeustromtad more <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 128: </td> <td> Line 128: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ I think we need another sentence in the last paragraph that says something about "the line" when a page becomes more of an advertisement or promotional tool rather than a useful community page. Not sure how to phrase this - please help if you can.<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 18:04:58CovertProfessormy 2 cents <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 129: </td> <td> Line 129: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * I like the revised version better. I think that many times price lists are useful for Davisites, especially restaurant menus. To me, it gets promotional when it says "BIG SALE" or "BEST PRICES IN TOWN" or things like that. --["Users/CovertProfessor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 18:00:54PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 110: </td> <td> Line 110: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses. We tend to </td> <td> <span>+</span> advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses. <span>'''</span>We tend to </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 112: </td> <td> Line 112: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> exceptions.'' </td> <td> <span>+</span> exceptions.''<span>'''</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 126: </td> <td> Line 126: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> Then we can simply say, hey, this long page of prices is really just promotional and axe. So we still have to remove straight up promotional material w/o any other value, but we don't have this strict "prices" mention hovering over our heads. The most important part of the guideline is ensuring that ''there is to be no promotion of business (directly) and nothing included in the wiki written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business.<span>" </span> This is legalise. As long as we stick to the guideline, as written (without prices), in spirit, I think we are fine (and, as I mentioned, we're not required to implement it exactly as sent to the IRS). </td> <td> <span>+</span> Then we can simply say, hey, this long page of prices is really just promotional and axe. So we still have to remove straight up promotional material w/o any other value, but we don't have this strict "prices" mention hovering over our heads. The most important part of the guideline is ensuring that ''there is to be no promotion of business (directly) and nothing included in the wiki written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business.<span>''</span> This is legalise. As long as we stick to the guideline, as written (without prices), in spirit, I think we are fine (and, as I mentioned, we're not required to implement it exactly as sent to the IRS). </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 17:58:36PhilipNeustromquestion to folks interested in this <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 99: </td> <td> Line 99: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + People seem to be getting really confused about the prices note. I tried making it more clear in the latest wording:<br> + <br> + ''For-profit businesses are always free to contribute, respond, and help maintain pages<br> + about their business on a wiki. These pages are maintained by the community as a whole,<br> + and the pages should be written in the voice of the community, not in the voice of the<br> + business. Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a<br> + whole, not promote a particular for-profit business.<br> + <br> + What's this mean? This means that adding stuff like promotional material (without any<br> + other value, e.g. it's not historical, newsworthy or otherwise interesting) and<br> + advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses. We tend to<br> + consider things like long product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are<br> + exceptions.''<br> + <br> + Nevertheless, I can see the pricing note as being damaging. Our attorney told us it wasn't a requirement for us to adapt the language we sent to the IRS in our guidelines -- it's most important to follow the spirit of them. With that in mind, perhaps a little informal poll is in order: Do folks think it's worth it to axe the mention of prices in our guideline and keep the rest of the language? So, it'd just be:<br> + <br> + ''For-profit businesses are always free to contribute, respond, and help maintain pages<br> + about their business on a wiki. These pages are maintained by the community as a whole,<br> + and the pages should be written in the voice of the community, not in the voice of the<br> + business. Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a<br> + whole, not promote a particular for-profit business.<br> + <br> + What's this mean? This means that adding stuff like promotional material (without any<br> + other value, e.g. it's not historical, newsworthy or otherwise interesting) and<br> + advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses.''<br> + <br> + Then we can simply say, hey, this long page of prices is really just promotional and axe. So we still have to remove straight up promotional material w/o any other value, but we don't have this strict "prices" mention hovering over our heads. The most important part of the guideline is ensuring that ''there is to be no promotion of business (directly) and nothing included in the wiki written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business." This is legalise. As long as we stick to the guideline, as written (without prices), in spirit, I think we are fine (and, as I mentioned, we're not required to implement it exactly as sent to the IRS).<br> + <br> + What do folks think? --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-02-08 17:49:31PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 14: </td> <td> Line 14: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> consider things like product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are </td> <td> <span>+</span> consider things like<span>&nbsp;long</span> product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-01-20 22:36:10PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 14: </td> <td> Line 14: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> consider things like product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are exceptions.}}} </td> <td> <span>+</span> consider things like product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are<span><br> +</span> exceptions.}}} </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2010-01-20 22:35:32PhilipNeustromreworked page a bit <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 5: </td> <td> Line 5: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- {{{There is to be no promotion of business or anything included in a wiki<br> - that is written by a for-profit business that would help promote the<br> - business. There may be pages on businesses which may include<br> - information such as hours, location and services. However, the pages<br> - may not include promotional material, advertising or prices. Each<br> - page is open for all in the community to contribute to and a variety<br> - of viewpoints, both positive and negative, are expressed by different<br> - individuals. Critical, many-sided and open commentary, discussion and<br> - opinion regarding local for-profit business community is intended to<br> - educate the public and consumers, promote neighborhood cohesion and<br> - lessen neighborhood tensions, and combat community deterioration.}}}</span> </td> <td> <span>+ {{{For-profit businesses are always free to contribute, respond, and help maintain pages<br> + about their business on a wiki. These pages are maintained by the community as a whole,<br> + and the pages should be written in the voice of the community, not in the voice of the<br> + business. Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a<br> + whole, not promote a particular for-profit business.</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 17: </td> <td> Line 11: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- Historically Davis Wiki had always tried to keep pages from becoming to commercial in nature. Good information about businesses was always valued, but when pages started reading like advertisements instead of informational pages then they were marked with the '''["Advert"]''' marker.</span> </td> <td> <span>+ What's this mean? This means that adding stuff like promotional material (without any<br> + other value, e.g. it's not historical, newsworthy or otherwise interesting) and<br> + advertising is generally not okay on pages about for-profit businesses. We tend to<br> + consider things like product price lists to be promotional in nature, but there are exceptions.}}}<br> + <br> + Historically Davis Wiki had always tried to keep pages from becoming too commercial in nature. Good information about businesses was always valued, but when pages started reading like advertisements instead of informational pages then they were marked with the '''["Advert"]''' marker.<br> + <br> + ["Users/CovertProfessor"] had this somewhat personal way of putting it, in regards to a downtown business:<br> + <br> + ''Speaking personally — yes, I want the downtown to thrive and be successful. But please understand that the purpose of the wiki is not to promote any particular business, or even the downtown in general. The purpose is to serve as a resource for the Davis community. Thus, both good and bad comments are retained, text that is too "ad-like" or promotional is removed, and the pages should reflect what is true and accurate.''</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-12 12:24:12JasonAller(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 1: </td> <td> Line 1: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> When [wiki:wikispot:"Front Page" Wiki Spot] (the host for Davis Wiki) became a 501(c)(3) non-profit some new guidelines for what was appropriate content for wiki pages came along with it. See [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] for the Wiki Spot list of questions and answers. </td> <td> <span>+</span> When [wiki:wikispot:"Front Page" Wiki Spot] (the host for Davis Wiki) became a 501(c)(3) non-profit <span>(in Dec 2009) </span>some new guidelines for what was appropriate content for wiki pages came along with it. See [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] for the Wiki Spot list of questions and answers. </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-12 12:20:53JasonAllera little cleanup <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 1: </td> <td> Line 1: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> - See [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] for the Wiki Spot list of questions and answers. </td> <td> <span>+ When [wiki:wikispot:"Front Page" Wiki Spot] (the host for Davis Wiki) became a 501(c)(3) non</span>-<span>profit some new guidelines for what was appropriate content for wiki pages came along with it.</span> See [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] for the Wiki Spot list of questions and answers. </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 17: </td> <td> Line 17: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- List of pages that have been tagged with the '''Advert''' include:</span> </td> <td> <span>+ Historically Davis Wiki had always tried to keep pages from becoming to commercial in nature. Good information about businesses was always valued, but when pages started reading like advertisements instead of informational pages then they were marked with the '''["Advert"]''' marker.<br> + <br> + List of pages that are currently tagged with the '''Advert''' include:</span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 21: </td> <td> Line 23: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- The first step is to have a discussion about what this means.</span> </td> <td> <span>+ Given that a lot of pages have price information and there will be a period of discovering which instances are ok within the guidelines and which are not it is important to have a discussion about what this means.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 15:44:03PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 91: </td> <td> Line 91: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> * "There is to be no promotion of business": broad in terms of what promotion means and we kinda define this. Generally addressed by "Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a whole, not promote a particular for-profit business."<br> <span>-</span> * Made clear the new restriction on price information. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> <td> <span>+</span> * "There is to be no promotion of business": broad in terms of what promotion means and we kinda define this. Generally addressed by "Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a whole, not promote a particular for-profit business."<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;Again, we don't have much of any promotion of business here - we have many-sided pages that do not promote any particular business. This is the way it's always been.</span><br> <span>+</span> * Made clear the new restriction on price information<span>&nbsp;and promotional material</span>. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 15:32:58PhilipNeustromComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 87: </td> <td> Line 87: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2009-12-09 14:32:58'' [[nbsp]] Folks- I spent some time writing what I believe is a human-understandable form of this guideline: [http://wikispot.org/Community_Guidelines#PROMOTE see here].<br> + <br> + * "voice of community" vs voice business part: lets us address the "written by a for-profit business that would help promote the business" aspect. If businesses write promotional phrasing on pages about their business then that should be cleaned up (as is the case now).<br> + * "There is to be no promotion of business": broad in terms of what promotion means and we kinda define this. Generally addressed by "Pages about businesses should serve to inform and teach the community as a whole, not promote a particular for-profit business."<br> + * Made clear the new restriction on price information. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 12:03:15PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 75: </td> <td> Line 75: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * The issue is that it's not educational or charitable. Not everything has to be, of course, but the IRS agent zeroed in on commercial use and wanted us to have something defined in terms of limitations. You could argue that it's educational, and in fact argue that the IRS agent is wrong, but we didn't do that. As-is, menus are likely not okay unless they have educational, historical, news or some sort of other over-riding value aside from convenience, for instance ["In-N-Out Secret Menu"] which is not available elsewhere and is literally compiled from community common knowledge. Given that restaurants rubber-band their menus to my apartment door, I think it's pretty clear menus are promotional material. I'm okay with William's compromise - it's up to us to enforce this. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 11:47:27CovertProfessormenus are helpful to the community. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 74: </td> <td> Line 74: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * Since I am (thankfully) not part of the IRS, I can't comment on that part -- and if all of you decide that posting menus in any form is a violation of IRS strictures, I will understand. But speaking as a community member who uses the wiki to decide where and what I might be eating on any given night, having the menus online is a real convenience. In other words, it's even more than documenting the facts. -- cp</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 10:50:45JabberWokky <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 73: </td> <td> Line 73: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * I agree. Thumbnail isn't a sizing term -- it means a representational image. Sure, the thumbnail option on the wiki is almost always used to just resize images, but technically a thumbnail is a representational image to show the person what they will be clicking to see. A menu is a good example. Absent of any IRS considerations, I prefer it that way when doing a "cold read" of an entry: it lets me know what information is available in an attractive manner. My mind wants to say that it's documenting the business (and to my POV, it clearly is), but I'm not sure it is an honest act given the current limitations we accepted as a non-profit. Is a menu commercial or documentary in nature? If I put up a website on my server to host menus, would that be okay to link to? How about a non-board member? -jw</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 09:35:29WilliamLewis(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 75: </td> <td> Line 75: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> 1. Pictures of price boards are ok as long as they are artistic. Also, incidental pictures of price boards are ok as long as they aren't the focus of the picture. </td> <td> <span>+</span> 1. Pictures of price boards<span>&nbsp;embedded in an article</span> are ok as long as they are artistic. Also, incidental pictures of price boards are ok as long as they aren't the focus of the picture. </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 09:29:04CovertProfessorreply to wl <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 72: </td> <td> Line 72: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * Look at the ["Red Orchid Restaurant"] page, for example. I think with the images for the menus, you can see a little bit better what you're going to get when you click. And I don't think they waste space -- I think they look nice on the page. If we made those thumbnails just a little bit smaller, you wouldn't be able to see the prices at all. --cp</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 01:22:24WilliamLewis(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 71: </td> <td> Line 71: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * If the image is too small to see in the thumbnail, what is the advantage of a thumbnail over a text link? The thumbnail wastes way more space. --wl</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 00:59:30PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 80: </td> <td> Line 80: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the idea. The IRS was concerned about for-profit businesses essentially writing pages that were basically promotional material for their business (which occasionally happens, but, like I said, it's usually fixed). </td> <td> <span>+</span> The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the idea. The IRS was concerned about for-profit businesses essentially writing pages that were basically promotional material for their business (which occasionally happens, but, like I said, it's usually fixed).<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;I think phrasing our human-readable form of this in terms of "voice of the community.." is a good idea.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 00:57:03PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 80: </td> <td> Line 80: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the <span>main </span>idea. </td> <td> <span>+</span> The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the idea.<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;The IRS was concerned about for-profit businesses essentially writing pages that were basically promotional material for their business (which occasionally happens, but, like I said, it's usually fixed).</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-09 00:48:35PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 77: </td> <td> Line 77: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + Can you give a concrete example of what you're worried about? We're not saying that businesses cannot add information about their business or respond to comments and criticism. However, for-profit businesses cannot use the wiki to advertise and directly promote their business. This is the way things have always (when editors have been paying attention) been. I wish this was easier to explain. Hopefully we can come up with something concrete and human-understandable here.<br> + <br> + The "written by a for-profit business" part is intended to protect the wiki from things like "Buy our stuff now!" The pages are written from the voice of the community as a whole, not the businesses. That's the main idea.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 23:48:56JimStewartComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 75: </td> <td> Line 75: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 22:48:56'' [[nbsp]] Well now, this seems a bit one-sided. A busines can't do anything that promotes that business, yet any number of anonymous critics can post unverified opinion that damages a business... How is that equitable? --["Users/JimStewart"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 23:35:02CovertProfessorhow about... <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 70: </td> <td> Line 70: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ * What if the image is embedded, but the thumbnail is small enough so that it's not readable without clicking on it? That way, you can see what it is and access it quickly -- I hate the way that the wiki handles PDFs -- without the prices actually being on the page. --["Users/CovertProfessor"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 23:08:46WilliamLewis(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 70: </td> <td> Line 70: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should not be hosting these, anyway, as menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such.</span> </td> <td> <span>+ 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should not be hosting these even now because menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such. [http://archive.org Archive.org] is your friend, anyway.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:53:53NickSchmalenberger(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 70: </td> <td> Line 70: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should be hosting these, anyway, as menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such. </td> <td> <span>+</span> 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should <span>not </span>be hosting these, anyway, as menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such. </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:51:59WilliamLewis(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 69: </td> <td> Line 69: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- 1. Don't put menus in the body of a page. This includes embedding an image. All menus must be linked to.</span> </td> <td> <span>+ 1. Don't put menus in the body of a page. This includes embedding an image. All menus must be linked to. Listing a few dishes that the restaurant prepares is fine, as long as you don't rip the description out of the menu. Of course, listing the description from the menu would be ok if you're discussing the description of the item for one reason or another.</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:49:51WilliamLewisComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 67: </td> <td> Line 67: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 21:49:51'' [[nbsp]] How about these rules for menus?<br> + 1. Don't put menus in the body of a page. This includes embedding an image. All menus must be linked to.<br> + 1. If the business has a current menu online, link to it off site. We should be hosting these, anyway, as menus change and it's one less thing for us to update. Maybe we lose some history there... but people who care can keep old menus and such.<br> + 1. If a business doesn't have a current menu online, we can host it here. However, the menu should be in the form of an image file or a PDF, not text. (Sorry screenreader users)<br> + 1. Pictures of price boards are ok as long as they are artistic. Also, incidental pictures of price boards are ok as long as they aren't the focus of the picture.<br> + 1. The prices at ["buffets"] can be posted in the body of the page as long as undue attention is not given to them. Big, bold fonts are out. A little price in a data table is fine. --["Users/WilliamLewis"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:32:54JasonAllerlinking to Wiki Spot <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 1: </td> <td> Line 1: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ See [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] for the Wiki Spot list of questions and answers.<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:32:06PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 64: </td> <td> Line 64: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>- </span> What we did in the IRS change was give the community tremendous room to define what is and isn't okay, with some exception. Price lists on a for-profit business page is the one concrete thing. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> <td> <span>+</span> What we did in the IRS change was give the community tremendous room to define what is and isn't okay, with some exception. Price lists on a for-profit business page is the one concrete thing. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:31:58PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 62: </td> <td> Line 62: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here.<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> <td> <span>+</span> Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here.<span><br> + <br> + What we did in the IRS change was give the community tremendous room to define what is and isn't okay, with some exception. Price lists on a for-profit business page is the one concrete thing.</span> --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"] </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:28:27PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 60: </td> <td> Line 60: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> Like I said before, comments a<span>re comp</span>l<span>ete</span>ly protected. <span>W</span>e do<span>&nbsp;</span>n<span>o</span>t n<span>eed</span> t<span>o</span> <span>ed</span>it the<span>m</span> a<span>ny m</span>o<span>re t</span>h<span>an</span> we alrea<span>d</span>y <span>do</span>. </td> <td> <span>+</span> Like I said before, comments <span>gener</span>ally protected. <span>Pric</span>e<span>s in comments -</span> don<span>'</span>t <span>eve</span>n<span>&nbsp;worry about it. I</span> t<span>hink</span> <span>w</span>it<span>h comments we just take</span> the a<span>ppr</span>o<span>ac</span>h w<span>e'v</span>e al<span>ways taken -- </span>re<span>move sp</span>a<span>mm</span>y <span>stuff</span>. </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:27:21PhilipNeustrom <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 59: </td> <td> Line 59: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + Like I said before, comments are completely protected. We do not need to edit them any more than we already do.<br> + <br> + Promotional material / advertising material that has educational or other value outside of promotion of the business is '''always okay.''' In fact, '''educational material is always okay.''' What we did with the IRS was tell them, "okay, prices and direct promotional material on a for-profit business page isn't educational (in of itself) and don't really have other charitable value really." If something has value, from a historical, educational, consumer protection, or community perspective then we can keep it. But we think there's a line here. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:20:52JasonAllerComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 53: </td> <td> Line 53: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 21:20:52'' [[nbsp]] We have three areas to deal with:<br> + 1. Promotional Material. This one is harder to define. Figuring out what it applies to could be interesting. Possible impacts: Flyers for a show, official logos rather than photos of signs, "staged" photos of apartment complexes, pdfs of handouts? What else?<br> + 1. Advertising. We've already gone after this and pushed back with people who came on too strong? We have the ["Advert"] include. I don't see this having any direct impact on the way we do things.<br> + 1. Prices. This will be interesting. What if someone leaves a comment "I paid $50 for a perm here and I love it." Traditionally no one would alter their comment. If it is a comment by a person about the business is it ok for the price to be mentioned? I'd tend toward leaving the comment alone. For prices in the "article" section there are some I think are important for people to have when shopping around. ["Apartments"] for instance as Brent mentioned. I also like the table on the ["Pizza"] page even though it is massively out of date. A menu without prices loses more than half the value to the person reading it. If I see hamburger -- $.99 versus hamburger -- $7.95 I've got different expectations of that hamburger.<br> + Overall I think that we can work with this, the trick is to work this through and integrate it in a consistent manner with prior established Wiki norms. The key element that brought this on is a cause for celebration and opens the door to some exciting possibilities for both Wiki Spot and Davis Wiki. --["Users/JasonAller"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:11:54PhilipNeustromComment added. <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 51: </td> <td> Line 51: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 21:11:54'' [[nbsp]] I'll be integrating our questions &amp; answers to [wiki:wikispot:"Community Guidelines/Business promotion questions"] when we're mostly done discussing. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 22:06:07JasonAllerMoving stuff from the other page <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 27: </td> <td> Line 27: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ <br> + I think it'd be a better idea to write a more human-readable form of that promotion tidbit. We wrote that (literally) to please the IRS. What's it mean? It means, as is the case now, business owners can't use the wiki as a direct promotion / advertising vehicle. This is a community resource, written by the community.<br> + <br> + However, the one major new change: we can't have things like a '''direct''' price list in the body of a page. This crosses the line from educational community resource to being promotion of the business, at least in the eyes of the IRS. Aside from that, things remain largely the same.<br> + <br> + For instance, the prices on ["APEX Cycles &amp; Service"] cross the defined line. And, I think if you think rationally about it, it looks like that business is using the wiki as a direct way to promote their business rather than the wiki maintaining an educational and useful page on the business.<br> + <br> + '''Business owners are still totally allowed to participate in all aspects of the wiki!''' And that's what makes all our pages so great. In this case, they simply can't upload like crazy giant logos that flash or write things like "COME TO OUR STORE!!!" We, as a community, usually edit that kind of stuff out anyway.<br> + <br> + The '''promotion''' aspect is ''entirely'' up to us to define. And that's pretty much what we've already been doing with things like the ["Advert"] tag. We just need to be a bit more aware of this in the future. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> + <br> + Does this mean that all of the restaurant menus have to go? --["Users/CovertProfessor"]<br> + * I know most are linked off the restaurant pages -- so I guess the definition of what the body of page means is required. To me, it means all pages. Of course if we simply blacked out the prices... --["Users/RyanMikulovsky"]<br> + * Jason's right that we won't have to change very much if we don't want to . Most of the menus include price information, which could be taken to be against the rules. However, note that the last section (about community commentary, etc) uses various secret IRS codephrases that indicate we have broad ability to talk about things which have other exempt value. For instance, we can talk about prices if there is a need to educate the public and consumers, promote neighborhood cohesion and lessen neighborhood tensions, and combat community deterioration. Or for any over-riding educational value. We just don't want blatant price tables on for-profit business pages. Specific to menus: I think prices may have to go on those, technically. Remember, this is just our large policy. How we interpret it is up to us. For instance, ["Cheap Food"] is fine because it's clearly a consumer protection/educational comparison of a large number of things and not a single business posting promotional material about itself. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> + ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 20:36:19'' [[nbsp]] There is a bunch to talk through, but the good news is that Wiki Spot has 501(c)(3) status. Philip seems to think we won't have to change too much of how we handle things, but we need to talk out how we will handle things. --["Users/JasonAller"]<br> + ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 20:43:24'' [[nbsp]] Is it ok to list prices for apartments? This is information that isn't easily available elsewhere. --["Users/WilliamLewis"]<br> + <br> + Yes. See my above comment. --["Users/PhilipNeustrom"]<br> + ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 20:47:28'' [[nbsp]] I'm pretty sure that as we go over the wording we can work out a way to keep important features of the wiki. Philip was pretty smart in the way he worded it, but you have to read it over several times to catch all the subtlety. It took me about four readings to start to figure it out. --["Users/JasonAller"]<br> + ------<br> + ''2009-12-08 20:52:05'' [[nbsp]] Big ol' price tables make me unhappy in general. Yet ["Pizza: FSI Calculations"] makes me feel warm inside. I think price ranges definitely have value, though. --["Users/BrentLaabs"]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 21:55:21JasonAller <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 21: </td> <td> Line 21: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ There are three areas to discuss:<br> + 1. Promotional Material<br> + 1. Advertising<br> + 1. Prices<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 21:52:03JasonAller <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 19: </td> <td> Line 19: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ The first step is to have a discussion about what this means.<br> + </span> </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 21:28:44JasonAller(quick edit) <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 15: </td> <td> Line 15: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <span>-</span> List of pages that have been tagge<span>s</span> with the '''Advert''' include: </td> <td> <span>+</span> List of pages that have been tagge<span>d</span> with the '''Advert''' include: </td> </tr> </table> </div> Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictionshttp://daviswiki.org/Wiki_Community/For_Profit_Restrictions2009-12-08 21:27:18JasonAller <div id="content" class="wikipage content"> Differences for Wiki Community/For Profit Restrictions<p><strong></strong></p><table> <tr> <td> <span> Deletions are marked with - . </span> </td> <td> <span> Additions are marked with +. </span> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Line 1: </td> <td> Line 1: </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> <span>+ The Wiki Spot terms of service state:<br> + <br> + {{{There is to be no promotion of business or anything included in a wiki<br> + that is written by a for-profit business that would help promote the<br> + business. There may be pages on businesses which may include<br> + information such as hours, location and services. However, the pages<br> + may not include promotional material, advertising or prices. Each<br> + page is open for all in the community to contribute to and a variety<br> + of viewpoints, both positive and negative, are expressed by different<br> + individuals. Critical, many-sided and open commentary, discussion and<br> + opinion regarding local for-profit business community is intended to<br> + educate the public and consumers, promote neighborhood cohesion and<br> + lessen neighborhood tensions, and combat community deterioration.}}}<br> + <br> + List of pages that have been tagges with the '''Advert''' include:<br> + <br> + [[LinksHere(Advert/Tag)]]<br> + <br> + [[Comments]]</span> </td> </tr> </table> </div>