2008-01-09 09:03:49 well, and the comments should probably go back and a note put on the user's page explaining how the comments work and that the page isn't in control, blah blah blah. (ie: the usual blahs). not sure why a talk is even needed :-) —WesHardaker
2008-01-09 10:34:05 Heh. I had started to restore them (literally copied the added text and had the revert page open), went to lunch, came back and finished it. In the meantime all this popped up. —JabberWokky
2008-01-09 10:49:19 Gah. I see the reason they weren't reverted back now. Hurm. Okay, that decidedly needs to be discussed. I had glanced at the first couple removed and saw normal reviews. The last three are very questionable for several reasons. —JabberWokky
Okay, we really should not try to reveal anybody's identity here. It could be very bad if a well meaning wikisleuth put an honest anonymous whistleblower in the spotlight. That said, here are some questionable items about those three comments:
- They are all single use accounts (i.e., this was the only edit they made)
- They all have all lowercase, two name, vaguely culturally similar names
- Same use of the term "crossed the line"
- All posted within a four day span
- All use CAPS to make some points STAND OUT
- All have quite a bit of verbage... no quick "me toos" or the single sentence comments that are statistically more common.
Things that do make sense:
- Creating an anonymous account for this kind of comment
- They came from different IPs1
2008-01-09 12:06:52 What I think works best in cases like this is for the other party to post a follow up. For me, when I see two different parties arguing I usually end up taking sides based on what I'm hearing: consistency, politeness, etc. I don't trust any comments I see that are single sided but need the full story from both sides before I can make a decision personally (as would a jury). —WesHardaker
2008-01-09 12:13:03 3 different IPs doesn't lead me to believe they were separate people. Two were from campus, and a third from elsewhere (which I won't go into). Anyone with intelligence would have posted from three places they had access to in order to give an appearance of being multiple people. —WesHardaker
- Yeah, I caught that too. Thus my warning about revealing identity. I mention the IPs because the other bits seem fairly clumsy if they are trying to look different compared to the effort of posting from other locations. It's a bit of a stretch, but I wanted to include something on the other side of the argument lest we all just assume that they are bogus (in some way, at least). —JabberWokky
2008-01-09 16:26:33 Another thing that makes this tricky is that even if the three comments are from the same person, that person may still be correctly reporting experienced events. But it certainly (at a minimum) could be mentioned that these are the only postings from those accounts. —CovertProfessor
2008-01-09 17:07:53 I've decided to remove my listing,These statement were made to damage my busisness as well as me as a teacher, I feel this site is used by some people to slander me and my studio. and I'm asking you to remove even this page. I'm contacting my attorney to see what recource I have. I've worked hard to build my busisness and don't want to lose busisness from someone who has a arugument with me I feel if someone has a issue they need to say something to me. This is how I make a living ! There are many happy students that have been coming to my studio for awhile now. I don't know who this is .Robert —RobertBoswell
- Several other people here on the wiki have noticed that they were questionable, primarily because the accusations came from accounts that were only used to post these comments. The three comments have been removed and the people who posted the allegations asked to stand behind them due to their serious nature. They were momentarily placed back after you deleted them so they could be discussed, but unless the individual or individuals makes a reappearance, they will likely remain removed. Wiki content is managed by the entire community (including you), so it took a day or so for people to weigh in on the issue. Personally, I sincerely hope no more comments of the sort ever appear again; accusations of this sort are terrible, and false accusations reprehensible. — Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, (615) 517-6900
- As a brief followup, the comments have again been restored after some of the original authors came forward to support them (see the comments below). — Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards
2008-01-10 20:35:14 I am concerned about my comment being taken off the site because I wrote it as a way to make sure that other people as well as those who had already written their comments on here knew that they were not alone if they had experienced Robert "crossing a line". This is not about "getting back" at him, I am MOST concerned with making sure other people have the information they need. I would have felt bad if I had not written a review of his behavior as a business man; as I thought that this was the forum in which to do so. If the other people who wrote comments would like to talk please email me at email@example.com. —ginnymop
2008-01-11 08:28:15 Ginny, normally comments, positive or negative, are left on business pages without interference. In fact, we will normally restore negative comments if business owners remove them, encouraging them to respond to the comments instead. However, comments that appear to be duplicitous in nature are removed. For a less controversial example of this, see http://daviswiki.org/Raja_Indian_Cuisine?action=diff&version1=139&version2=136, where two comments were left in short succession by two newly created accounts coming from the same IP address. The comments about the behavior of Robert were seen as suspicious, having been left by three anonymous, newly created accounts within a short period of time using similar wording, and potentially catastrophic to his business and life. We've honestly discussed it a lot and are torn on what to do, as none of us want to see people getting taken advantage of, but, at the same time, don't want an innocent person's business getting destroyed by false complaints.
I think the general consensus is that, if you are willing to stand behind your comments by using your real identity, they can stay. However, we can understand why you and others might not want to do that due to the nature of the complaints. I think your attempt to get in touch with other victims is a great step.
If you have any suggestions on how we can handle this, given that we have no way of verifying the complaints, we'd love to hear. —JessicaLuedtke
2008-01-11 09:26:15 Please let me know what kind of comment I can now write that will not be taken off. I would still like to make a comment like everyone else on Wiki but perhaps I can just change the wording. I now wish that I had not used the word "CREEP" or "he might have serious problems" in my comment. I was upset at the time and I think it took away from the idea that I was trying to get at; which is: that others should know that this might happen to them if they use the studio and if it has already happened to them that they are not alone. After my experience, I went on the DavisWiki to check the Barefoot Yoga site to see if anyone else had experienced what I had experienced. When I saw that there were two other comments I thought "wow, o.k. i guess I am not alone, and wow, I guess I better write something too to stand by those two other people",. I completely understand the fact that not using my name does not help but I have to protect myself and my family. I will certainly write a different comment with less incendiary wording if that seems more fair. What should I do? I have to be true to myself and stand by my ideals that is why I am pursuing this. Thank you for your time. —ginnymop
2008-01-11 11:46:26 We've restored the comments to their original form, having reasonably determined that the users who left the comments are real people, and not sockpuppet accounts. ginnymop, If you wish to edit your comment or re-add your email address (which I think is a great idea), feel free. RobertBoswell, we would like to encourage you to respond to these comments, as this is generally a more productive course of action than comment deletion (see Welcome to the Wiki/Business Owner). —JessicaLuedtke
2008-01-11 12:53:47 Thank you. —ginnymop
2008-01-11 22:40:34 I'm surprised with what has taken place,first I'll state that any action in class in regards to touching a body are adjustments that are used in yoga all the time. drawing the shoulder back, to stack it over the other ,pulling the legs back to straiten them by placing the hands inside the legs at the( knees) drawing them back in downward dog,or flatting or leveling the hips in Parsvottanasana, also stacking the hip on top of the other by pulling the one hip back towards me,as in triangle pose, are all common adjustments . The next point is have any these people stated that this supposed action was brought to my attention in class or after,I always ask to make adjustment to a student,if that is a concern they could of spoken up and said something in class or after. And i feel the important point is I don't know who these people are and your site is anonymous so they feel maybe they will not be held acountible This can and will affect my business and my ability to earn a living.I'm requesting you remove these comments again.I have been willing to state my name.I will seek legal advice in this matter. Just to let you know that one of these people wrote me a letter when I refused to extend her agreement and there was no mention at the time about any concern about my adjustments, and in this letter she stated she felt I'd had taken her money unfairly which is untrue . The first comment made I think is by a person that on her last time in class was acting strange as if she was intoxicated, she kept falling back on to me during class when I made adjustments she was laughing as if she was intoxicated,she had not had this issue before in class so on exiting the class I asked if she had been drinking,I only ask because when I talked to her before this time she stated that she had made some new friend and had been going to happy hour when class took place,I had asked why she hadn't been in studio for a couple of weeks and that why she had not been to studio. maybe she was offended by my question. I fell to understand if they had a problem with my adjustments why they didn't confront me . I have shared this concern with some of my students to get there feed back about this ,and will be glad to come to my aid.I make every effort to make sure all my student have a positive experience here and I feel the majority does. I'm always asking student when they've been absent if there is an issue,after all this a business.I have more information that I will share with anyone from wiki ,but I won't state it on line,Yet please contact me via vis my email please. —RobertBoswell
2008-01-12 12:45:57 Please move my last posting to my studio page .was unable to just cut an paste just my feed back thanks —RobertBoswell
2008-01-16 17:42:50 I posted my comment the same day that I read florafloja's comment. Initially (and still) I felt bad because if I had posted a comment sooner maybe she wouldn't have had the same thing happen to her. My problem with Robert happened a few months before I posted but I was afraid he might figure out who I was if I said something sooner. Also, I guess I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt just in case he and I had some major misunderstanding. When I read about the inappropriate hand movements and florafloja feeling like maybe she was somewhat to blame for being friendly and laughing with him I had to say something. "Crossing the line" is exactly what he did;that's probalby why we all used that expression. And yes, I created this account to post this comment. I've lived in Davis for a long time and been reading this Wiki for awhile but was never moved to post something good or bad. I understand very well that yoga requires some touching to help with positioning and so it takes a few sessions before you realize that Robert has gone beyond helping. Believe me, I thought about it a long time before I decided to post a negative comment but I really didn't see any other way to protect people. It's not so blatant that it can be reported to the police department but still damaging and scary. Robert has some major anger management issues. His aggressive attitude is what kept me from saying something to him about the touching. If you read this Robert, get some psychiatric help. If you really don't believe you did anything wrong you really need to talk to someone. (Oh, and I don't drink and I had no disagreements about money with Robert). —lunestiasanchez
2008-03-25 23:01:36 Thank you to everyone on the wiki for your thoughtfulness in handling this matter. I spent a long time carefully choosing my words before posting them, as I knew the damaging effect they could have. I feel I was careful to convey only the singularity of my experience. I was careful not to make any accusations or blanket statements. I only wanted to post my experience, as I felt a little rattled and confused, and felt responsible to say something as I had referred many people to the studio. Seeing others respond with similar experiences really helped me feel less crazy, and I think this type of thing is one of the great contributions of the wiki. I am happy that Robert and other people write rebuttals, that way folks can read all of the postings and make their own choices. I honestly have no ill intent for Robert. I just wanted to use my voice and it seems there are some others singing the same song. Thank you again for the thoughtful deliberating. I am a REAL person! And I am separate from ginnymop and lunestiasanchez. This upsetting experience is what prompted me to create the wiki account. —florafloja
2012-10-31 01:09:57 I KNOW THE MAN PERSONALLY..HE IS IN CHECK BECAUSE HE HAS TO BUT I EXPECT HIM TO RE OFFEND..MY REAL NAME IS TYGHE STORM....I CAN ATTEST TO FACT THAT ROBERT IS EXACTLY AS DESCRIBED BY ALL OF THESE PEOPLE...ROBERT..WE KNOW WHO YOU REALLY ARE DO WE NOT?
1. This sounds like a 50s horror movie