This page is for discussing the contents of Eastlake Apartments. Talk Pages are created in order to allow the wiki community to work through issues regarding the content of the parent page.

Here are the edits that are being deleted by JessAlvarwez and FIip1770DE:

On fire? Need a pool to jump into? They got 'em! They even come with complementary water inside them.

Looking for apartments that have outsides as well as insides? As you can see, the Eastlake apartments are sheathed in fully three dimensional solid matter exteriors as well as having living spaces inside composed of space full of air. And instant on lighting.

Anybody want to contribute a less sterile and commercial-esque photo of an apartment?

Eastlake spams Craigslist like nobody's business during leasing season.

[[Image(eastlake spam.png, thumbnail, 200, "Guess which 14 postings for a 1285 sq. ft. 3BR apartment are from Eastlake!")]]

[[Image(eastlake spam 2.jpg, thumbnail, 200, "What's that? 14 listings in a few minutes didn't get enough responses? I guess we'd better increase it to 20 listings tomorrow!")]]

Comments:

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2012-07-08 12:41:44   JessAlvarwez, can you explain why you are deleting information from the Eastlake Apartments page? —CovertProfessor


2012-07-08 14:14:24   Please ban TOmGarberson from the Eastlake page. He has done nothing but disrespect our business page. His defamation of the property and business is not professional and or welcomed. I am deleting his insertions comments under the property photos and Craigslist insertion —FIip1770DE


2012-07-08 14:18:23   Are you saying that those Craigslist's ads are not genuine? If Eastlake Apartments is spamming Craigslist with ads, then the Davis community has a right to know about it. —CovertProfessor


2012-07-08 14:23:07   Tom has as much right to add his view to the wiki as anybody else. He is a member of the community, and the wiki is entirely composed of community commentary and observations about the town in which they live, including about apartment complex management and how they advertise. The content he added seems to fit that purpose quite well. Are you disputing the fact of his statements? —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards, jw.dw@timewarp.org, (814) 889-8845


2012-07-08 14:29:23   Posted by staff or not, it's not appropriate to allow a random person to make changes to a business page. If anyone wants to put in their two cents, they can do so in the comments section. I don't go around changing other peoples wiki pages when i have a problem with them. I make a comment in the appropriate section. Similar to Yelp, no one can change the content unless approved by the business owner. in conjunction, every person does have their right to say what they want in the comments section and make their rating. We would appreciate if the childish changes to the page to stop immediately. Thank you for your understanding, Covert. —FIip1770DE

  • The business page does not belong to you or to the business it describes. It belongs to the community. Please read Welcome to the wiki/business owner so that you can get a better idea of what is going on. There is nothing special about the comments section — anyone can edit any part of any page. That is how the wiki works. This is not Yelp. Thank *you* for understanding. —CovertProfessor
  • "it's not appropriate to allow a random person to make changes to a business page." It absolutely is. That's how nearly every page about a business on this wiki was created. Just like pages about things other than businesses. This is a community resource created by the community. It's not the yellow pages. What you're asking is no different in principle from demanding that the enterprise not write an article about a local business. They don't need anyone's permission to do that. As long as you keep this mentality going that only businesses should control the pages about them, you're going to alienate people and encounter tons of resistance, making you look terrible in the process. Is it too much to ask that you actually browse this site in an attempt to understand it and read our various guidelines before editing? Because it is apparent that you have not done so. Embarrassingly so. —WilliamLewis

2012-07-08 16:43:59   The three comments cited above, intended (I guess) to be humorous, were flippant and not appropriate to the business page. I understand and support the desire to remove them. Comments and content about Craig's List advertising are reasonable, I suppose, though why anyone would care if someone is advertising aggressively on Craigs List is unclear to me. I understand the desire of Wiki editors to make the point to the management that this isn't 'their' page, but making a big effort to retain flip edits seems over the top. —DonShor

  • They were not "flip", they were very seriously aimed at making the page less commercial in tone. Less businesslike. There's a serious problem with people thinking that this is a business listings site with commercial intent, when it is legally prohibited from being so. They were humorous... and also a dead serious attempt to rectify a growing problem. Certainly the last of the comments is aimed squarely at that problem in a way that nobody could have any problem with. -jw
  • I don't disagree with Don that it's flippant. I was irritated with obnoxious advertising, so I was flip in response. That said, I don't think there's something sacrosanct about a business entry - any more than for a local issue page, an ASUCD politician page, or a ChamberPAC page. If you're advocating for a strictly formal tone on the wiki, I think you're going to be pretty much alone on that issue. I'm not a fan of personal attacks and that sort of thing on the wiki, and I think I've generally avoided that. But I don't want to see it turn into nothing but a business listing site. All that said, I don't have a problem with changing the captions. Any suggestions? —tg
    • The first lines three are my edits, and I'll reiterate that I was in no way being flip. I am genuinely concerned about the increasing common mistaken belief that this is somehow a business listings site rather than a community perspectives and town documentary site. Which, again, has serious ramifications, both for content and in legal ramifications. They may be humorous, but they are thought out and serious in their application. -jw
  • Page after page of sober, flavorless text is boring. I've always loved the wiki's whimsy, and yet there are those who determinedly remove it — especially when a business is involved. No harm is being done here, no insult, except for that which EA brought on itself by spamming. I am against kowtowing to someone who clearly doesn't understand the wiki and isn't trying to, given that there is no real problem with the edits. —CovertProfessor

2012-07-08 18:29:39   I'm the one who uploaded the photos. I also refrained from posting the other two screenshots I took. 4 times in 3 days, Eastlake spammed Craigslist with between 14 and 20 ads in a very short time (so that there were 0-2 other postings in the middle of Eastlake's stuff). Only one other apartment complex in the Sacramento region spammed at close to that level, and that's Greystone (here in Davis).

As someone who was looking for housing, I found it extremely annoying. It makes it harder to look for real stuff. So I added that information tvo the wiki (and e-mailed Eastlake about the problem).

It's an abusive approach to advertising. It's as relevant as another apartment complex putting leaflets under everyone's windshield wipers, or that groupon knockoff spamming people's e-mail addresses. It's also an opportunity for some customer service on their part, but that's obviously up to them.

Frankly I don't care that much whether the stuff remains on the page, since the message has apparently been received. What they do having received the message may be more significant than the advertising itself. —TomGarberson

*if you find something annoying about a company, why not leave a comment in the comment section instead of trying to sabotage with vandalism to the page? Do you vandalize personal pages too? Do you take it upon yourself to edit wikipedia pages out of spite? (they wouldn't allow it and you would be banned)

  • This is a wiki, not wikipedia (which is arguably not a wiki). If nobody can add their content to the page, who would write the pages? -jw

2012-07-08 18:47:26   I agree with flip and Jess. The issues of Tom should be made note of in the comments section only. —PookiePie

Welcome to the wiki. Have you read this page? —TomGarberson

  • I absolutely agree. However the entirely of the wiki is devoted to the commentary and viewpoints of the community. That includes all pages, and all parts of all pages. You're right, it should go into the comments section: and the entire wiki itself is a comments section. -jw

- There is a duality though between the "comment" section that implies subjectivity and the "biography" part which, like wikipedia, implies objectivity. -PP

  • Yep. That's why there's a problem, and why several people advocate getting rid of the comment macro. It is there to make it easy to add to the wiki, but has had the unfortunate and unintended side effect of people somehow thinking that the upper area is somehow different than the lower area. This also makes people less likely to edit freely, which is also an issue. Incidentally, why would you think that a wiki written by a bunch of people would be objective? Why should it be? Most writing is very opinionated. Restaurant review guides, travel memoirs, music magazines, blogs and emails are all full of opinion and descriptive terms. Mark Twain, Hunter S. Thompson and H. L. Mencken are all lauded authors — and opinionated as hell. -jw

-* I don't think that a wiki written by a bunch of people would necessarily be objective or not, nor should or should not be so. Only that their is an implied "place" for objectivity and for subjectivity in this wiki. It seems for now like a wikipedia with comments format. I wish they had "comments" at wikipedia. How would it work if it were totally subjective?

    • If you read around on the wiki, I think you'll find reality doesn't uphold your inference. —TomGarberson
    • See #8.
    • I would say that the objectivity is "inferred" not "implied" — in other words, it is not intentional. The intent is to represent many different points of view — that's how it works, or should work, anyway. —CovertProfessor
    • Why do you keep referencing Wikipedia? There is zero relation between Wikipedia and Davis Wiki, and Wikipedia is arguably not a wiki (for several reasons, primarily because it is a encyclopedia project that happens to use wiki markup). Wikipedia didn't become really popular until after Davis Wiki launched, and was not the origin for Davis Wiki. The websites that were referenced were Friendster, LiveJournal, DavisCoeds and TheFacebook (the original, college-only one). -jw

long story short big ups to Tom Garberson for blowing the whistle and providing evidence of said cl spamming claim

Thanks for integrating it into the entry as it's relevant! Daubert


2012-07-09 18:04:45   Hello Everyone, I am the Eastlake manager and it has come to my attention Eastlake has had some excessive postings on Craigslist. I have spoke to my staff regarding these posts. We most definitely did not intend for these repeated posts. Yes, we do advertise on Craigslist, but again this was never our intention. Also, as new users of Davis Wiki, we were unaware there would be a problem if comments were erased in the of Eastlake’s top informational area within Davis Wiki. We never intended to hinder anyone’s comments as we thought the lower half was for everyone and anyone’s input, because that is how it seems on all other pages. As I said before we never intended to hinder anyone and we apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused. Sincerely, Arlie Righos

ArlieRighos


2012-07-10 22:25:21   Anybody have any issue if I move some of the points Emily makes higher in the writeup? The maintenance bit is important, as is the fact that it is a quiet neighborhood. That's something people look for. —JabberWokky


2013-06-24 15:54:27   Good afternoon CoverProfessor,

Thank you for giving us the chance to redeem our reputation. We acknowledged the Craigslist posting incident last summer and openly apologized for the inconvenience that we have caused. Again, this was never our intention. Is there any way for us to have "Craigslist" statements removed?

Sincerely,

Arlie Righos Property Manager Eastlake Apartments P 530.758.5253

ArlieRighos

  • I will requote CovertProfessor's information here as I agree with it. —PeteB
  • "my personal opinion is that since the information is true and potentially informative, it ought to remain. It is an incident that happened in the past, yes, but the wiki retains historical information as well as current information." —CovertProfessor

I will add: One possibility is that you reply and say that you made a mistake, you apologized, and you'll never do it again. (There's a better way to word that, but you get the idea). —CovertProfessor


2013-06-25 11:52:05   Hello Coverprofessor,

I believe we have apologized...please view my post from 2012-07-09 18:04:45:

"Hello Everyone, I am the Eastlake manager and it has come to my attention Eastlake has had some excessive postings on Craigslist. I have spoke to my staff regarding these posts. We most definitely did not intend for these repeated posts. Yes, we do advertise on Craigslist, but again this was never our intention. Also, as new users of Davis Wiki, we were unaware there would be a problem if comments were erased in the of Eastlake’s top informational area within Davis Wiki. We never intended to hinder anyone’s comments as we thought the lower half was for everyone and anyone’s input, because that is how it seems on all other pages. As I said before we never intended to hinder anyone and we apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused. Sincerely, Arlie Righos"

If you or other DavisWiki users are not okay with having the Craigslist comments removed from the Eastlake page, so be it. We have apologized for the postings and this will never happen again. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Arlie Righos Property Manager Eastlake Apartments P 530.758.5253 —ArlieRighos


2013-06-25 12:02:25   I appreciate your apology, but that's not really what's at issue. What's at issue is whether potentially relevant information should stay on the page, and again, I think it should. If you want to add an apology to the page itself, right below the information about the Craig's list posting, I would encourage you to do so. —CovertProfessor


2013-06-25 12:13:17   Thank you for your input - I believe we have apologized and obviously we are not going to let this happen again.

Sincerely,

Arlie Righos Property Manager Eastlake Apartments P 530.758.5253 —ArlieRighos


Hey, Arlie — Nobody is asking you to apologize to anybody. It's merely a suggestion that you might want to place an explanation (and if you want, an apology) next to the information on the page so it also presents your side of things and lets people know what you did to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's a suggestion intended to help round out the public information by adding more details, including what your perspective was. The info is out there... we're encouraging you to add your side of things with it. —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards


2013-06-25 13:49:50   I didn't realize the apology was already on the page. It was not in a good spot. I have now moved it to what I think is a more noticeable location. Hopefully that helps. —CovertProfessor


2013-06-25 14:04:13   Thank you. —ArlieRighos