This page presents the following issues:
This page is being used like a facebook page by the business. Promotional language is used: "With more than 10 years experience, John tackles every problem in no-time. Whether your computer has viruses, is giving you blue screens, won't turn on at all or if you like to have a home-network, a new videocard installed or if you want a custom build computer, John helps you out." Basically, we've crossed the line here and are PROMOTING a business, in violation of our guidelines.
JeroenPost added a web bug, tracking visitors to the page. WTF? I removed it for now.
2012-02-06 09:17:33 Outreach for the win! But yeah, I agree that the language is quite promotional. Outreach + rewrite = resolved, I would think. —TomGarberson
2012-02-06 09:58:14 OK, I'm working on it. —JeroenPost
2012-02-06 10:12:50 Ok, I fixed the text. I think it is suitable now? About the hitcounter. I found all kinds of counters on the wiki, usercounter, pagecounter, (see here: http://wikispot.org/Help_with_Macros?action=show&redirect=Macros&wiki=davis). But the only thing I could not find was a visitorcounter for an individual page, so I offered some of my free time to program one to be used on the daviswiki. I think more people would like this on there page. You can find some details here: http://starfixit.com/davisWikiCounter I was not quite finished, you can't login yet. I hoped to do this in the next hours, but if you don't allow it on the wiki I'll remove it. Sorry for the inconvenience, I hoped to help some people out who wants a simple counter.
If I cant use the visable one, may I use an invisable one on my page? —JeroenPost
Why do you need to track visitors to a community resource? —WilliamLewis
I don't really need it, but I missed the option. I was very curious about how many people actually visit that page, as DavisWiki only provides the statistics for the whole wiki. —JeroenPost
2012-02-06 10:27:30 Good fixes to the main text of the entry! I think some of the photo captions could still use a little work. Thanks, John, I really appreciate the work you're putting into making the page conform to wiki guidelines! Incidentally, I like the looks of the home office a lot. The little lounge room looks really cool, with the computers and snacks and whatnot.
Regarding the counter, I honestly can't explain very well why I don't like it... it just kinda rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I'm just resistant to change :) —TomGarberson
I forgot the images captions indeed. I am sorry for the inconvenience I caused. —JeroenPost
It's no inconvenience! Thanks again for the changes. The wiki is kind of unusual in the whole non-promotional thing, so it's totally understandable. —tg
2012-02-06 11:24:49 My link to the SNL video was meant to be funny, hope it didn't come across the wrong way... anyway, I just picture these counters cropping up across the wiki, and then, what's the implication if one page has more hits than another? A certain computer repair shop that shall not be named would have had a very high hit count, but not in a good way... —CovertProfessor
Hahaha yeah... that certain repair shop would be bad news. —tg
2012-02-06 17:32:14 As a reply of: 2012-02-06 09:16:44 Hi Tom, thanks for you comment. I think you are right about the hitcounter, I didn't thought of it that way. I was just curious about the amount of visitors, and figured out an easy way to track it and to make it available for other users too. I agree it is not a good idea to show the hits on the page itself, but what about an invisible counter? Everyone with a little knowledge of a web-programming-language can mask a counter in an external image and use the statistics for themselves. The only way to stop that is to disable the use of external images, but I can't think of a reason to do that. Thanks for you positive approach! —JeroenPost
I think you're right: it's reasonable, and it'd be all but impossible to prevent. I don't see any problem with having an external counter, or even with making an external counter publicly available. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else here. Thanks again for being so open and friendly in discussing this. We've had a series of people recently who have been unhappy with the way various issues have been handled on the wiki, so talking with someone reasonable and helpful is like a breath of fresh air! —TomGarberson
2012-02-07 08:54:39 Hitcounter tracking is lame. External images are lame. Vast majority of images are (and should continue to be) non-external. —EdWins
2012-02-09 09:59:42 I sure would like a counter/tracker. You get much insight into how people use the Wiki and you can make improvements along the way. If for instance a lot of people visit "Davis Occupy" or "John Pike", you can see it. You can see what's apparently 'news' and what is hot. I would like to know where people come from visiting Davis Wiki. I write Dutch articles about Davis/NorCal, and I would like to see if people use my links (I refer to Davis Wiki ☺). So please, can we reconsider this? —ConstantiaOomen
I think a "most active pages this week" - list (right below to the "Featured pages" or so) would be great, but that would not work with my "counter". —JeroenPost
- That would be cool! —ScottMeehleib
Under no circumstances should an outside party be given personally identifiable usage statistics. Since our IPs are associated with our names here, the external image bugs allows people to see who is reading what. If the community SOMEHOW finds this acceptable, we need a HUGE BANNER that a third party is tracking our visits and give instructions on how to block these bugs. —WilliamLewis
I think you are absolutely right. But to be sure you have to block all external content. Everyone can track users now, just by using an external image. The "counter" I made was a simple PHP script that stores a hash of the users Ipaddress and the number of times that person was on the page and at the end renders an image (so it looks and acts like an image, no-one can tell the difference). Everyone can do that, so if you say "under no circumstances", you have to block ALL external content. An internal visitorscounter would be an option (if a lot of users want this), and is very easy to accomplish. —JeroenPost
I am aware that anyone can do this right now; what made you think otherwise? I don't need your explanation with irrelevant technical details. There is a reason why we discourage external images. But sometimes they are necessary. We trust our users to be ethical and not abuse these things. And when people do abuse these things, we catch them, just like we catch spam. You are not the first person to try this and you certainly won't be the last. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. And you violate the default trust we place in users when you pull abusive stunts like this. —WilliamLewis
I thought that way because you said: "Under no circumstances". External hosted images will always give the users information to the party hosting it. Most webservers logs access data by default. I am sure you are aware of this, so I am only saying this to make it clear for others. You can't catch that like spam. You "catched" me because I was openly announcing what I was doing (and I did not do it for abuse of any kind, only to help make DavisWiki nicer for some users by adding a simple tool). —JeroenPost
2012-02-09 17:27:34 Hope that something is possible and we all can agree on it. To see from which country visitors are, and to see what is 'hot news'... Finger on the pulse of things helps to improve Davis Wiki! —ConstantiaOomen
2012-02-09 18:48:40 It's a great way to determine your Return on Investment (ROI) for the time put into maintaining your presence on Davis Wiki. It allows people to focus on results, not frittering away effort into content that does not drive eyeballs. You can test various wordings for the best impact that drives people to your site and/or business. I enthusiastically support this idea as a way to maximize results. —JabberWokky
Yes, this points out exactly why I wanted a visitor-counter, it gives you something in return, you can see that people are actually reading your stuff and it motivates you to make it even better. —JeroenPost
Agreed. It allows you to tailor your content to the market and streamline and remove any extraneous items that do not garner interest. By doing so, we can keep the content of the wiki focused on productive copy that draws numbers and position existing assets to be audience oriented, driving visitor counts up. —JabberWokky
JeroenPost, I might be out on a limb, but I think you are completely missing JW's deep sarcasm here. I think he is trying to say, "you completely misunderstand the nature and point of the wiki." JW, if I am totally off base, I apologize. —CovertProfessor
But, but! I was *enjoying* using buzzwords! I am very seldom sarcastic (I would have used the term 'parody', but 'sarcasm' would not be incorrect), and it started as more of a "this feels wrong, but I can't pin down why" exercise. Honestly, it was a nice experiment in summing the wiki by defining the diametrically opposed concept: the wiki is not driven by popularity concerns at all, but rather as a tool for the community itself. I'd say that's part of the reason it is so popular: by simply scratching personal itches, the cumulative effort is far more comprehensive than a balanced, goal oriented and directed project. I think that adding external metrics as a guidance rather than the direct input of the community itself is a very dangerous path. You're interested in driving traffic, so a webbug is useful. The wiki simply is interested in being a really good wiki about Davis, and staying focused on that — rather than other concerns — is pretty important. -jw
Jw, my English is not good enough to understand parodies right away, so yes, I thought your first comment was meant serieus. And I still think there is some kind of true to it: you invest time in an article, and as a return you see that users read it.
I do understand and respect the nature of this great website. Since my english is bad (and articles would be terrible to read), this was my way to "contribute" to the wiki. If you may ever need someone to work on the wiki who knows PHP, I will gradly help you out. —JeroenPost
- I am a PHP programmer myself, Jeroen... great to meet another fellow coder! Your English is far better than my Dutch. ROI is a business term; I was intentionally overusing business and marketing buzzwords to make a joke. The Davis Wiki is a registered non-profit (well, the parent organization is), and we're very much not commercial in nature. We are actually legally prohibited from being commercial, so it was intended to be a kind of humor (parody) to use all these commercial terms when describing the wiki. I didn't mean to confuse, and certainly not to hurt anybody's feelings. Don't be afraid to contribute to the wiki because of your language skills: if you accidentally type something with incorrect grammar, somebody else will happily come along and help you out by correcting it. Everybody makes mistakes, and everybody helps each other by fixing each other's mistakes. It is a collaborative effort, so please don't ever feel that your English is not good enough. If somebody can understand it, they will help by rewriting what you wrote to be more clear. It's the contributions that are important. Welcome to the wiki! —Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards
2012-02-09 21:09:14 JabberWokky, so you were ironic about this? I still would like to know where visitors come from, maybe only from Davis, Sacramento and surrounding areas or maybe worldwide? We are Dutch, so forgive us if we miss the sarcasm, because we only met friendly people in Davis so far and we are still learning. ;-) —ConstantiaOomen
- Ah, my intention was parody, but the two are closely related. The idea of Return on Investment for a resource freely built by volunteers is a silly idea. There is no motivation for website visitors, only real world community. The two are different things. There's no reason to create General Merchandise and Grain other than it was personally really cool to find an old telephone book that covered the town when it had single digits. Very few other people care. But if everybody does that, it creates something far different than an organized effort to document something. The wiki creates serendipity and cultivates happy accidents through a multiplicity of personal urges rather than trying to be a "good website". There's an important difference between that and a metric driven website. -jw
2012-02-09 21:18:12 JW, I think you don't understand where we are coming from. I didn't really like your sarcasm, because one can misunderstand. I really would like to know how this Wiki is used, wouldn't you? Do you have visitors from France? ;-) Anyway, I stop this, it's not my initiative, so discuss this with my hubby. —ConstantiaOomen
- I didn't intend it to be sarcasm, and I have a cold clutching feeling in my chest when I see you were hurt. I genuinely and sincerely apologize with total horror that I might have insulted you. It was not my intent. I really did not think anybody could have taken it seriously. -jw
2012-02-09 21:21:34 I don't really see a problem with invisible hitcounters. I don't think it is completely outlandish to have a gauge for telling if a page has enough incoming links and is being found and read. —ScottMeehleib
2012-02-09 21:25:10 "I didn't intend it to be sarcasm, and I have a cold clutching feeling in my chest when I see you were hurt. I genuinely and sincerely apologize with total horror that I might have insulted you. It was not my intent. I really did not think anybody could have taken it seriously. -jw "
JW, now I'm really afraid you are being sarcastic again? Please write what you mean in future to Jeroen and me; not everybody knows in an instant what you mean, because they know you so well. —ConstantiaOomen
I can assure you that JW is being serious here. He really did not intend to hurt your feelings. —cp
- Constantia: My name is Evan Edwards, and my phone number is (814) 889-8845. Call me and I will apologize to you directly, sincerely and totally. I am absolutely honest when I say I have a horrible feeling in my gut that I hurt you. I am not sarcastic at all. It is not in my nature, and I abjectly apologize for any slight, misunderstanding or hurt I have caused you. -jw
2012-02-09 21:27:25 "Ah, my intention was parody, but the two are closely related. The idea of Return on Investment for a resource freely built by volunteers is a silly idea. There is no motivation for website visitors, only real world community. The two are different things. There's no reason to create General Merchandise and Grain other than it was personally really cool to find an old telephone book that covered the town when it had single digits. Very few other people care. But if everybody does that, it creates something far different than an organized effort to document something. The wiki creates serendipity and cultivates happy accidents through a multiplicity of personal urges rather than trying to be a "good website". There's an important difference between that and a metric driven website. -jw "
You sure know how to put it into words. Still, I would like to know. ☺ —ConstantiaOomen
2012-02-09 21:29:52 My take: Sometimes, pages are created that very few people care about. Maybe they lie unedited for years. Maybe someone stumbles on one and smiles. Maybe someone finds it interesting and edits it a bit. There are so many pages on the wiki, on topics big and small. By letting as many flowers as possible bloom, we create the most comprehensive view of Davis possible. I value the less visited pages as much as the well traveled ones, if not more. Those who are interested will eventually find their way to pages of interest, when they have time to look. We do not need to direct traffic or boost traffic. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-09 21:28:37 @ cp How do you know when JW is being sarcastic and when not; are you a psychic? ☺ —ConstantiaOomen
- I've been editing the wiki with him for about four years: you get to know a person's vision of what the wiki is about, and you get to know their feelings about other editors. Evan cares about the Davis community and its subcommunity of editors very much, and new editors in particular. He's right that he is seldom sarcastic. That was my term for it, and it was a poor choice of words. I am sorry that I create strife between you when it shouldn't have been there. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-09 21:38:05 @ CovertProfessor Who was talking about boosting traffic, or not appreciating less visited pages? I was not. I share your opinion totally! My hubby came up with the idea and I still don't think a modest tracker is such a bad thing. It should not get in the way, but it keeps you in touch with your visitors. For instance: if you notice a lot of people coming from France on a certain day and know what they are looking at and for, you can update better with related news (from France or...) And I link to Davis Wiki in my Dutch articles and would love to know if this generates Dutch traffic to Davis Wiki. Now we are in limbo. —ConstantiaOomen
- Aside from the technical worries, which have already been expressed by others, here's how I see things. I would encourage editors to edit pages that they are interested in and to add content about topics that interest them, rather than focus on attracting visitors. Who cares if we attract visitors here? The goal is to document Davis. It seems to me that we do that better by reflecting the community's interests and beliefs, not by trying to "give the people what they want." If others don't see the Davis-related content that they want on the Davis Wiki, they should add it. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-09 21:43:18 @ CovertProfessor Thank you, we are new to Davis Wiki and Jeroen (John) and I missed the initial ironic overtone. We were a little shocked by it, true, because Davis is such a friendly place. JW explained it and I guess everything is clear and alright now. Anyway, if there is no consensus, the idea must be abandoned. —ConstantiaOomen
- Sorry, I hope you still think of it as a friendly place. JW really is extremely friendly. I think if you stick around — and I hope you do — you will come to see that for yourself. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-09 21:49:37 @ CovertProfessor "not by trying to "give the people what they want." That too is not what I meant; I mean to know what's going on and why. We are not all psychics, a little help is nice. Of course I think Davis is a friendly place, we just missed some initial irony here (and there is a difference between irony and sarcasm, sorry for using both words interchangeably). —ConstantiaOomen
- Then maybe I don't fully understand what you mean. When you said, "For instance: if you notice a lot of people coming from France on a certain day and know what they are looking at and for, you can update better with related news (from France or...)," that sounded to me like "giving people what they want." Maybe you could give me a different example, focused on something about Davis, so that I could better understand? —CovertProfessor
- Well, that was really not my idea. My idea was very simple, just know how much people read your page, and nothing more than that. —JeroenPost
- But on the wiki, all of the pages belong to all of us — even, strangely enough, a page for your business. So, why should editors want to keep track of how traffic a co-written page gets? I understand it from a business perspective, but I don't understand it from a wiki-perspective, given that the wiki is a non-profit entity that doesn't promote businesses. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-09 22:11:04 Hi Covertprofessor. So you see, language is difficult and multi-interpretable. Are you a language teacher by the way, or something related? I meant it like this: if there are some developments in France that have to do with Davis, CA, and people on Davis Wiki wouldn't know about it (it could happen you know), you will learn that through this tracker. It sheds light on what's happening in the world and Wiki. You could improve information with it, by elaborating. But Jeroen (John) has responded too, and I think and hope you all understand we are just a modern Dutch couple, that loves to keep a finger on the pulse. Occasional habit ;-) —ConstantiaOomen
- I'm sorry, it still sounds like you are trying to give people content that they will want to read, as though we were a newspaper or magazine. Instead, I would urge you to write about whatever Davis-related topics interest you. Improve information that you think needs to be improved. —CovertProfessor
2012-02-10 08:39:26 @ CovertProfessor. You still misunderstand me. I am not exactly the type who wants to give people what they want. I am an autonomous and interested in honest information. Please take a look at my Twitter account to see what I mean (my profile text). I am just interested in up to date information and what better way to do it, then to know what's happening on Wiki. —ConstantiaOomen
2012-02-10 08:44:33 @ JW/Evan Edwards "My name is Evan Edwards, and my phone number is (814) 889-8845. Call me and I will apologize to you directly, sincerely and totally. I am absolutely honest when I say I have a horrible feeling in my gut that I hurt you. I am not sarcastic at all. It is not in my nature, and I abjectly apologize for any slight, misunderstanding or hurt I have caused you. -jw"
Thank you, no need to call, I believe you. But your little parody was at the expense of John, and then I have this need to say something. ;-) —ConstantiaOomen
You stopped the project for now ;_; I for one am on the JabberWokky boat in the case of the mysterious hit counter, also Alistair Overeem is Dutch, do you guys follow his exploits? Daubert
2012-02-11 11:10:25 @ Daubert Never heard of the guy 'till you mentioned him. But I am not that much into physical kickboxing. Mentally kickboxing suits me more. —ConstantiaOomen
Any objections to closing this talk page? The issues were 1) the page was too promotional [resolved] 2) whether a hit counter should be used. [Consensus indicates it shouldn't, and none has].
2012-06-26 09:08:36 I think it can be closed. —JeroenPost
2012-06-26 09:23:55 I think it can be closed. —jefftolentino
2012-06-26 11:16:01 I just did some minor cleanup on the page to make it more like other pages, but I agree that the issues raised here have been resolved and that this Talk page can be deleted. —CovertProfessor